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Jerry Bauman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 06:29 pm |
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I posted some Parker Repro's that were for sale on another site. They were not mine and I don't even know the owner, but I thought they may be of interest to someone here.
I got a nasty e-mail from from someone saying this site does not allow gun sales, but I see about two topic's below showing other sites that have Parkers for sale.
My post was deleted, why is it that these other posts continue to show?
I was not selling these guns I was only referencing them from another site, just like GunBrokers or GunsAmerica.
I think if the quick fingered censor had taken the time to read the post he would have seen this.
Only asking.
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GregSchroeder
Administrator
| Joined: | Mon Jan 3rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 303 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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Mr. Bauman,
I deleted your post, however I did not send you the email that you mentioned.
Your post on the PGCA BBS contained photos of the guns for sale a description and a phone number to call. This IMHO is not a reference to a sale on another site but a posting of a gun for sale on the PGCA site. In other words I could have purchased the gun in your post without having to go to the GunBroker or GunsAmerica sites that you mentioned in your post.
The moderators on this site are not 'quick fingered' and often have to make a judgement call about a post being considered for removal.
Greg...
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Jerry Bauman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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Greg,
Scroll down to DHE Bird Gun.
Is this not a gun that is For Sale ?, does this not give a contact person?
???????
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 10:33 pm |
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| J., it would be a bit of a disservice to students of Parker shotguns to have the "DHE Bird Gun" thread deleted. If that gentleman's intent from the beginning of that thread was to, at the end of two pages, give a reference to where we could look for his gun offered for sale, he sure worked hard at it. He also gave us some interesting research information. He even bought a PGCA letter and attracted the interest and attention of our historian. I think he deserves a pass.
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Don Kaas
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 11th, 2005 |
| Location: | Palm,PA |
| Posts: | 2720 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 11:42 pm |
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| The entire "no sale" policy is ridiculous. Over the last few years, I have bought no less than 3 Parkers from people who were just "looking for information" on this BBS as I know others have as well. Bruce Day, a PGC Director, frequently touts Parkers as "under valued" or "investments" especially C grades. Other well known posters, fishing for information hold the location of desirable Parkers close to their vest. How does this comport with a no sale policy? The naive among the posters here continue to offer well meant and often cogent advice to first time posters who are obviously trolling for offers. Part of COLLECTING guns is buying and selling them. Were the PGCA in the least bit democratic (instead of "buy a vote for $500") perhaps the Board would see the member's desire for a Parkers Only for Sale place on this BBS. If one can host for sale ads in the Parker Pages, why not here?
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Jerry Bauman
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 12:22 am |
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Bill and Don, this is exactly the problem I have here. I posted some Parker Repro's I saw on another site figuring someone here may find them interesting. I got the post deleated and a stern e-mail stating this site does not allow gun sales, but then noticed a few posts down one was allowed to remain.
I spent 31 years in education, many of them as a vice principal and pricipal of a large high school. It was important to the students, parents, community and my superintendent that I administer the rules and policy of the district in a fair and consistent manner so no one could come back and say why did my kid get treated differently than his kid.
I found the only way this works is to be consistent in the enforcement of the rules,no matter who you are dealing with. Just because one kid comes from a nice family and the other from the wrong side of town, both get treated fairly and receive the same consequences for their action. As much as I wanted to at times, a knee jerk reaction like I received here, would only cause me trouble latter on.
I would expect anyone who has the authority to enforce the policies of this site do the same, be consitent.
Sometimes a simple inquiry about the post or a suggestion how it would be better received does more good than a quick censor finger on the keyboard.
Just my thoughts.
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Erick Dorr
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 132 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 06:51 pm |
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JB. No good deed goes unpunished.
Don, Your honesty is refreshing.
My first post seeking info resulted in an instant pm inquiry from another poster seeking to purchase the gun I had questions about. While I was pleased that I had apparently purchased a Parker that has some demand, it also irked me that someone was skirting what I perceived as the buy/sell prohibition. I politely said I wasn't interested. I still have the gun and it will probably be one of the last I ever part with.
Now I understand that there is no prohibition on offering to buy guns on this forum, just a prohibition on offering to sell.
I admit to having been tempted to inquire if posters seeking info were interested in selling but felt it was not kosher. I clearly see that I was in on the naive team far to long. Henceforth it is my personal policy not to offer advice cogent or otherwise to first time posters. (Actually, I can state with certainty that much of my advice is not cogent.)
I don't pretend to understand the not for profit status rules and the distinction between the Parker Parts forum and offering whole guns for sale. In ignorance, I don't see where having a Parkers Only For Sale Forum would violate the not for profit status if the PGCA didn't charge or reap any benefit from the listings. I think its a good idea if no tax consequences resulted. I'm sure John would set it up so that anyone could list but only registered PGCA members could view the listings. I like that even more.
Actually, I remain very impressed by the generosity of members in giving both info and parts, etc.
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Destry Hoffard
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 3044 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 06:57 pm |
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I'm with Don on this one, if they can sell guns on the Double Gun BBS I'd think selling them here wouldn't be an issue. Maybe I don't know much but I can't see any real difference in their BBS and ours.
Destry
____________________
The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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Eric Eis
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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| I have to agree with Mr. Bauman and Don. We allow advertising of guns in the Parker Pages but not on the forum. Doublegun site does it without any problems that I know of so I really don't know understand this policy. If it is liability then won't it be the same as in the Parker Pages? Just my thoughts and still not understanding the policy. Eric
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Dave Miles
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1730 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:06 pm |
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| Well said Mr. Kaas, I agree 100%.
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Destry Hoffard
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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Do it like Double Gun, charge something for the service and make the organization a little money.
DLH
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The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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Brad Steinfeld
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:14 pm |
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I have a strong opinion on this subject but feel it prudent to refrain until I have the facts.
Can a Board Member please post the Boards rational on not supporting a "Parkers For Sale" area of the forum.
Thanks,
Brad
Last edited on Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:15 pm by Brad Steinfeld
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Eric Eis
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:17 pm |
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Go ahead Brad, we stuck our necks out why not you  Eric
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John Dunkle
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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I'm going to throw my hat into the ring on this subject as well.... But, for that - I would be surprised if this issue were not being discussed "off the forum" by some of the folks at PGCA...
That being said - I run, host, administer, own and operate two Internet firearm collecting sites - and on both, I allow firearms to be offered for sale - and as well - have an area for others who are looking for (Want to buy) certain variations. Both sites have been in operation for about nine years and have a combined total of about 9500 "Members" & "Registered Users".. During that time - I've never had a legal issue with providing firearms for sale on my sites...
And BTW - I agree with Mr. Kaas...
Just my $0.000002 (<--- inflation, don'cha know  )...
(BTW2: Posted as "me" - not an "Administrator")
JD
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Kevin McCormack
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 1025 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:26 pm |
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| Oh, my!; Now I REALLY wish I had an audio of canes/walking sticks thumping the floor, so I could "jolly up" the expressions of my esteemed colleague from Pennsylvania! I'm going to powder my wig and look for my three-cornered hat right now! KBM
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Eric Eis
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:35 pm |
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| Well Kevin why don't you throw your three-cornered hat into the ring Eric
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James T. Kucaba
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:45 pm |
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It is my understanding that the PGCA Board of Directors fears the BATFE will come down on the PGCA for allowing guns to be bought and sold on the website because someone read or heard that the BATFE wants to crack down on Internet sites because they believe that people who are ineligible to own guns legally for whatever reason have no problem buying them on the Internet. ... But if John Dunkle hasn't had a problem with the BATF in the nine years his sites have been up and running, maybe the PGCA Board is overreacting to the point of paranoia ... The Board of Directors is elected to guide the organization in the right direction by making the tuff decisions and we're all bound to honor their decisions.
____________________
"The price of critics NEVER changes ... They're ALWAYS a dime a dozen !"
"Those Who Matter Don't Judge Me ... Those Who Judge Me Don't Matter !"
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Frank DAmico
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 5th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1086 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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Its nice to see that there have been a couple of high spirited discussions on the BBS in the last few days, kind of woke things up a little. Its always a challenge to bring us old fellas kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I've read more than a few times that one of the objectives of this organization is to grow and especially to bring younger members into the fold, lest this interest in Parker guns die off with the last of group now here. Perhaps a little flexibility in policy needs to be considered. The young people needed are very savvy about things in this computer age.
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Brad Steinfeld
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 11:31 pm |
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I've gotten through two drafts of my reply and had to start over each time because each time I got into what I believe to be the crux of the issue I get so angry my thoughts became not suitable for public viewing.
Let's face it. At the core of this argument is a huge separation between the "old Guard" and the younger set within the PGCA. Or to put it another way the haves and Have nots.
Perhaps if the "Have's" would more openly embrace the future lifeblood of the PGCA instead of the alienation that is so often witnessed then relationships would circumvent a lot of the need for internet bartering of Parkers. But unfortunately that seldom seems to be the case. It's a selfish crime and I fear the future of the PGCA and Parker collecting will pay a dear price for it as these fine guns disappear behind very closed doors.
The reality is that unless you are privy to the "inner circle" of Parker holdings then the online marketplace becomes a key to locating potential guns. I guess if you are the "Inner Circle" it's easy not to give a damn or assume all the S.O.B wants is to buy my guns. Lets not forget if all that was important here was the "gun" then we might as well be collecting hubcaps. This is about sharing a mutual passion.
With that said:
I am very grateful to those of you who have graciously shared your passion, humor, wit and knowledge with me.
Sincerely,
Brad
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Forrest Smith
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Wed May 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | South Texas |
| Posts: | 124 |
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 12:15 am |
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Brad,
I believe you've hit on the issue, but first off some future lifeblood need to buy life memberships and be nominated, what a clever credential to have for directors.
One huge thing in relation to your post is that their is a large group of Parker collectors that have nothing to do with the organization because of the tone of the group, there is a group without whigs that shoot the Parker Gun. There are some very knowledgable Parker collectors that I'm aware of that don't participate here, maybe they just aren't interested?
Perhaps nobody wants to see a guns for sale section because they couldn't privately snipe guns that somebody knows not nearly enough about to sale at a fair price? The same guns spoken about here often end up on the internet guns site in a week or so anyway.
I disagree with your last point Brad, there are a whole, whole bunch of Parkers that nobody on this site has ever laid eyes on. A brief look through the serialization book reveals this. It makes me laugh at how un-rare alot of the rare guns really are. So many dealers propagate this myth, especially with what they percieve as a young idiot looking at the gun.
FS
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