| Author | Post |
|---|
Chuck Bishop
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 06:28 pm |
|
A very interesting topic. I have a few questions, hope they are not to dumb.
1. Were all Parker ribbands equal in length? My 3 iron measures 5/8" wide on both barrels.
2. Does each rod that is formed into a ribband equal 1 crolle/scroll on the finished barrel? If that is true then 3 rods would equal a 3 iron crolle and 6 rods would equal a 6 iron crolle.
3. How does the twisting of the rod affect the final pattern? Less twist vs more twist.
4. I guess what we are all trying to figure out is what constitutes "Finest Damascus" vs "Extra Fine Damascus" and just "Fine Damascus." Was it the number of crolles, leaves, or a combination of both. Is it harder to use more rods, more time to assemble extra strips of iron and steel?
Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 06:30 pm by Chuck Bishop
____________________
Chuck Bishop
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 06:53 pm |
|
Excellent Chuck
1. Were all Parker ribbands equal in length? My 3 iron measures 5/8" wide on both barrels.
The ribband length should be consistent within the number of irons ie. most 3 iron about the same as other 3 iron, and most 4 iron about the same as other 4 iron. The length of the ribband is of course dependent on the size of the scrolls, and the more the irons, the smaller the scrolls. 2 Iron scrolls are much larger than 4 Iron scrolls.
2. Does each rod that is formed into a ribband equal 1 crolle/scroll on the finished barrel? If that is true then 3 rods would equal a 3 iron crolle and 6 rods would equal a 6 iron crolle.
Exactly 
3. How does the twisting of the rod affect the final pattern? Less twist vs more twist.
The more the twisting, the smaller the scrolls.
4. I guess what we are all trying to figure out is what constitutes "Finest Damascus" vs "Extra Fine Damascus" and just "Fine Damascus." Was it the number of crolles, leaves, or a combination of both. Is it harder to use more rods, more time to assemble extra strips of iron and steel?
Now THAT'S a good one. The 1891 Birmingham Proof House trial showed little meaningful difference in strength between the first 20 or so patterns tested, both damascus, twist, and fluid steel http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_242cxhh9hfq
Assessing damascus quality is discussed at length here http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_22ddqshmdq
Clearly the more complex patterns; 6 Iron and Bernard II are more difficult to make and more expensive, but mostly we are discussing aesthetic quality - perfectly round symmetric scrolls of equal size with distinct ribband weld lines.
This is Tom Carter's 1881 special order Grade 5 Lifter with 6 Iron Crolle with lots of defects
Parker did not charge for this award gun, and it may well be one of the first 6 Iron barrels produced, using a 'seconds' barrel or 'sample' barrel.
BTW: the British though 6 Iron was 'over twisted' and Purdey and other 'Best' makers limited their damascus to 4 Iron.
Bottom line: When you get to high grade Parker damascus, quality is all in the eye (and pocket book) or the beholder 
Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 07:35 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
E Robert Fabian
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Mar 13th, 2008 |
| Location: | New Hampshire USA |
| Posts: | 216 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 07:52 pm |
|
Drew, this may have been discussed, do we know the significance of the C such as the one on the GH you posted on page 4 ?
Does the fact that others, that you mentioned, didn't use D5 or D6 make them rare or uncommon in the world of SXS ?
I feel my interest in the composite barreled guns is do to the skill and craftsmanship that was required to make them which is lost art now.
Bob
Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 08:20 pm by E Robert Fabian
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 08:22 pm |
|
I'll leave the 'c' up to the Parker experts Bob.
The damascus barrels used on the highest quality/grade guns by Ithaca, Hunter Arms, Colt, Remington, Baker, Lefever, Lindner Daly, and British 'Best' are all either 4 Iron Crolle or more complex 3 and 4 Iron patterns like 'Herring-bone' or what Remington called 'Legia P' This is Charlie's EE
Or this Lefever with Etoile'
I have never seen a 6 Iron British made barrel.
Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 08:26 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
David Purnell
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | Albany, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 470 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 11:21 pm |
|
Bill Murphy wrote: David, what is the serial number and configuration of your D1? Mine is #41,238, has very large Damascus pattern, is a 28" #1 frame 12 gauge. I will check the barrel flat markings next time I see it. Bill, Its #42732, 12ga, 30" barrels, #2 frame, overall weight 9lb-2oz., made in 1884.
Dave
|
Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 11:57 pm |
|
| Sounds like a great gun. There was one offered on one of the auction sites similar to mine and very close in serial number, but it was in sad condition. I should have bought it anyway. It seems to have sold or been removed.
|
David Purnell
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | Albany, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 470 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 01:19 am |
|
Bill, I bought this one about a year ago on Gunbroker. Everything is in pretty good shape except for some pitting on the frame around the hinge and the bolsters. The wood and checkering is good. The barrels had a very large damascus pattern like you said. I can't wait to see what Dale does with them.
Dave
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 06:13 pm |
|
Bill may be correct that the 'D4' stamp simply means 4 iron/blade/stripe crolle
G stamped D4
C stamped D4
Charlie's A stamped D4!!
The pattern of the G and A are quite similar, so it is still possible that the 'D4' is a grade indicator?? But why use the same pattern on a G and A?? Parker was so meticulous with documentation in the stock books, a generic 'D4' spanning G to A doesn't seem to make sense either. Certainly D2 is not, however, 2 Iron 
Last edited on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 06:17 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 07:16 pm |
|
Drew Hause MD wrote: Bill may be correct that the 'D4' stamp simply means 4 iron/blade/stripe crolle
The pattern of the G and A are quite similar, so it is still possible that the 'D4' is a grade indicator?? But why use the same pattern on a G and A?? Parker was so meticulous with documentation in the stock books, a generic 'D4' spanning G to A doesn't seem to make sense either. Certainly D2 is not, however, 2 Iron
I believe Bill is correct and that is precisely what I've been saying for a couple of years too.
So what was it that determined that a BH or an AH would get six-iron Crolle-Damascus rather than simply the four-iron Crolle-Damascus?? I can only imagine the answer must be somewhere in the order books. Often the price of the gun will give a clue as to which barrels might have been ordered. Mark is very keen in deciphering the order book entries.
Last edited on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 07:56 pm by Dean Romig
|
Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 09:19 pm |
|
| Dean, after reading tens of thousands of Parker orders, I am confident that we or Mark will never find an order that specifies a specific Damascus pattern. Maybe they would specify Bernard on a D Grade gun, but not a specific type of Damascus. Keep sending for those letters on specific guns, but don't expect to find a Parker Brothers customer who was into this "Damascus" thing beyond just wanting "Damascus Barrels".
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 09:34 pm |
|
| I know you have Bill, and I didn't want it to appear that I was disregarding all of your research. I know "specific Damascus patterns" don't appear in the orders but some things can be extrapolated from clues in the orders, or so I'm told.
|
Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 10:09 pm |
|
| I would love to read a couple of order books of the Damascus period cover to cover to see what clues we could find.
|
Austin W Hogan
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Feb 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 439 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 12:03 am |
|
I would like to quote some typical order book entries verbatim:
1 - 10/30 Dam P G 8 3/4 to 9 2 3/4 x 1 3/4 - 14 100
56553 is entered at an angle across this; that is the gun shown many posts above
Another reads
1 - 12 /30 Dam PG 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 3 in 100
56568 is entered at an angle covering the dac and length
Another
1 - 12/30 Dam PG Hmls 7 3/4 /8 4 x 2 1/2 /3 1/2 80
73201 is entered below
These are guns that have appeared in PP I think it is pretty obvious; the shop needed gauge, length, weight, drop and pull to make the gun, but the price was sufficient to specify wood grade, checking pattern, and damascus pattern.
The actual appearance of the damascus pattern depended on the batch of barrels on hand.
Best, Austin
Last edited on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 12:04 am by Austin W Hogan
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 12:27 am |
|
Austin W Hogan wrote:
The actual appearance of the damascus pattern depended on the batch of barrels on hand.
So the guy that got an A grade with six-iron Crolle Damascus instead of four-iron Crolle Damascus should just consider himself lucky?
|
David Purnell
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | Albany, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 470 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 12:45 am |
|
Actually, the guy who bought an A grade probably didn't know six iron from four iron, or have another to compare to. Besides with all of the other beauty of the gun, I'm sure is wasn't a detractor.
Dave
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 01:36 am |
|
Then why don't we find six-iron Crolle Damascus barrels on G, D and C grade guns?
It must have mattered to someone at the plant.
We know by the advertising that Parker Bros. printed that AH-grade Parkers had "Finest Damascus Steel Barrels" and that BH-grade Parkers had "Extra Fine Damascus Steel Barrels" and that the CH, DH, and GH-grades all had "Fine Damascus Steel Barrels" and that "Truth in Advertising" laws had probably not yet been enacted but Parker Bros. had a fine reputation to uphold so there must have been 'something' about the barrels that would determine 'which was which' besides the batch of the barrels on hand.
Charlie's AHE has six-iron Crolle Damascus barrels that are stamped D6... how can that be a coincidence?
Dave's and Bob's BH-grade guns are both stamped DD and both have six-iron Crolle Damascus but not as aesthetically pleasing as Charlie's AHE-grade with D6 barrels. I don't think we've reached a conclusion here. I think we have a long way to go yet.
|
David Purnell
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | Albany, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 470 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 10:20 am |
|
Good Morning,
I'm sure that picking out a rough barrel for each new gun order was done with the same integrity and attention to detail that Parker Brothers put into every other aspect of production. Certainly, none of us were alive and working in the Meriden plant at the time of Damascus gun production, so we have to speculate on what Parker's procedures were.
We probably don't see six iron crolle on grade G, D, and C guns, because those grades were ordered more often than grade B or A. Just like any efficient business, I think that Parker made every effort to match their parts inventory to their projected sales. They would have the largest inventory of "D" barrels for lower grades, then "D4" barrels for grade D and C, and the fewest barrels on hand for the highest grades.
If an A grade gun got "D4" barrels, it was the exception rather than the rule, probably based on available inventory.
I've noticed in research letters, that even for my low grade guns, the time from the order date to the ship date varies from one week to six months. We can only imagine the zillion variables in Parker production, but even with all those variables, deadlines had to be met, contractors had to be paid, and the company had to make a profit to continue.
Dave
|
Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 03:00 pm |
|
| From my experience, it seems that the different types of Damascus were stacked in batches rather than identified by markings in all cases. I say that because my Grade 2 #54,369 is unmarked as far as Damascus quality but it is identified in the stock book as a 4 blade barrel set. These barrels were obviously white as snow when they were stacked, otherwise they would have to be refinished after final fitting. It is pretty difficult to identify the quality of Damascus barrels when they are in the white. I'm sure 4 blade tubes were shipped in batches, joined and ribbed and still kept separate after final joining. Some were stamped with D4 markings and others slipped by the marking punch, like mine, but were identified as 4 blade by the batch they were stored in.
|
Ron Conover
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 78 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 06:46 pm |
|
| Not damascus but here is a pic of what may be barrel marks S for a stub twist. Only other mark is a T and PB on flat of the barrels and the serial number on the barrel flat. If the barrel stamps had been lost during manufacture (and they almost were)the only reference to stub twist on this gun would be the top rib on this early T1 stub twist lifter. Whether by the barrel maker and or Parker this type of barrel mark makes me think those raw tubes had ID. How well or to what degree I can not say. I see one pic on this thread with the number 12 and a letter. Is this a reference to gauge? Is it a barrel remnant stamp or was it placed on the barrel during manufacture of the gun? It would be interesting to see some damascus barrel markings if in fact any survived. Regards Ron Attached Image (viewed 80 times):
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 07:35 pm |
|
| Could that PB in the shield be a stamp that Parker Brothers used on the barrels they manufactured in house? Last edited on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 07:38 pm by Dean Romig
|
Current time is 07:02 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6   |
|
