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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 06:20 pm |
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Counting 'Scrolls' to determine 2 Iron, 3 Iron, etc. is discussed here http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_0dgmfqfgm but this might help.
The 'lopin' or 'billet' starts with alternating layers of thin strips of iron and steel (the leaves)
Which is rolled/hammer forged twisted into the rod (the scroll), then the rods are hammer forged/rolled to form the ribband, then the ribband is wound around a mandrel and the edges are 'jumped' (over-lapped) and helically welded (whew!)
It's alot clearer here
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_180c83rvwg4
Two Iron 'Oxford'
Left to right:
1. Leaves within a scroll - 6 Iron (black) and 6 Steel (white)
2. Ribband weld line
3. 1/2 scroll
4. One full scroll
5. 1/2 scroll
6. Ribband weld line
1874 $250 Grade (6) Parker Lifter 4 Iron 'Turkish' courtesy of Richard Hoover
Last edited on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 06:54 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 07:31 pm |
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| Is the iron brittle such as in cast iron or is it a more malleable form of iron?
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David Purnell
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 08:17 pm |
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Drew,
So, the two iron, three iron, four iron etc, is only talking about how many scrolls are between riband weld lines? And the number of leaves in a scroll is always six iron and six steel? Or does the number of leaves change too? I think I might be starting to see what you are talking about, maybe sorta kinda like.
Dave
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 09:30 pm |
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Dean: WAY beyond my expertise, but discussed a bit here http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_218hcmgq3gw
Dave: By Jove, I think he's got it  4 Iron Crolle has 3 full and two 1/2 scrolls between the ribband weld lines. Unfortunately, the weld lines can be tough to pick out in some patterns.
Some billets are quite complex
Top: Star Left: Double 81 Bernard Middle: Extra-Fine Crolle Right: Washington (or American Flag)
Most crolle patterns have 6-12 'leaves' however
Last edited on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 09:32 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 01:43 am |
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This is a photo just made of the barrel of 3215. It is in both Serialization... and TPS. There has been a long time discussion about this gun; it seems to be the highest grade of the time, but the frame and locks are only half covered by engraving.
Note the two lines that run northwest on the photo. There are six bands of twists between the lines. Six bands equals Dam 6
This is not always an easy analysis, as in this case, but I think that in the beginning , it was that simple; 6 bands per turn equals Dam 6
Best, Austin
Attached Image (viewed 434 times):
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David Purnell
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 02:04 am |
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Austin,
Not trying to differ, just wanting to understand. But, I think by what Dr. Drew is showing, your gun is a three iron crolle, rather than six. Doc, this would be a good time for an explanation.
Dave
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 02:05 am |
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That barrel is 3 Iron Crolle.
This is a GH with 3 Iron Crolle, which has 6 'leaves', and six 1/2 scrolls between ribband weld lines and is D2
This is DH with D3 4 Iron Crolle, with 4 'leaves', and 8 1/2 scrolls between ribband weld lines = D8?
This is Charlie's 10g AH with D6 6 Iron Crolle, with 4 'leaves', and 12 1/2 scrolls between ribband weld lines = D12?
I believe Parker Hammerless Damascus is classified as follows:
HAMMERLESS QUALITY GRADES: D2 - "Fine" Three Iron 'Oxford' Crolle, D3 & D4 - "Fine" Four Iron Crolle, Bern4 - ('Rose Pattern') "Bernard II" (found on C grade guns), D5 - "Extra Fine" Four Iron Crolle (found on both B and A grade guns), D6 - "Finest" Six Iron Crolle. The Parker fine leaf, small scroll, symmetric, annular Crolle is referred to as "Turkish", "Damas Crolle Turc", "Turkischer Damask", and English "Best Damascus." D3 through D6 barrels have this pattern.
With examples here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19025099
Parker Lifter Damascus is quite different, I believe of English origin rather than Belgian, and is shown here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19406549
But I am a most certainly NOT a Parker expert.
Last edited on Sat Jan 24th, 2009 02:21 am by Drew Hause MD
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David Purnell
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 02:30 am |
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Sorry to belabor the point. But it seems to be a difference whether one counts the whole scrolls or half scrolls. Which one makes the count for grade, is beyond my knowledge.
Dave
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 03:15 am |
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Dave, the 'scroll' count crosses the grades. Dave Suponski has a Damascus BHE with 6-scroll barrels but there are B grade Parkers with four and five scroll barrels as well. I have a few GH Parkers with three scroll and a couple of DH Parkers with three scroll barrels as well. There are CH guns with three scroll, four scroll and Bernard barrels so, as you can see, the Damascus barrels are not really determinant of the grade.
Dean
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 12:49 pm |
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When I look at Charlie's barrel, I'll buy 3 or 6, but I can't find 4 anywhere. The weld lines of the strip are obvious; counting weld line to weld line gives 6 boundaries. Pretty good agreement with Dam 6 or A grade. Also an easy way to grade a gun so that the customers can instantly see the grade difference.
Best, Austin
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 02:06 pm |
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Sometime around 2005 - 06 we had a discussion here about CH guns with Bernard and Damascus Barrels. I had a CH two barrel set gun at the time, with a Dam 4 10 ga barrel set and a B4 12 ga barrel set. The discussion centered around the number of B4's. The D4 rib was rollmarked and I made a microphotograph that showed the B4 rib was hand engraved.
There was also a question about the uniqueness of the Dam 4 pattern. I had a photo of the Dam 4 and a Dam 3 of the same era; they both had the square corner pattern, but the Dam 4 was certainly "finer" ie more lamina.
The twist or damascus pattern was not obvious on a tube, before polishing and blueing. Barrels had to be stamped with type and grade when assembly was begun so that the engraving and checking matched the grade of the barrel. The grade of the barrel was probably determined from the manufacturers invoice and stored in the proper pigeon hole in the first warehouse. There are two major unknowns here; how often did Parker obtain batches of barrels for a given grade? how did the barrel fitters match the turns side to side on unfinished barrels?
Best, Austin
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 06:50 pm |
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Austin,In response to your last paragraph.Could it be that the barrels were made in matched sets at the manufactory and kept together when they were shipped to Parker?
Dave....
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 09:24 pm |
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That is possible Dave, but they somehow needed to be witnessed so that the breeches could be cut to align them. The only thing we know about the tubes is that they were"rough tubes, imported at minimum duty" from Johnson. I tried to trace Customs reports on the Library of Congess web site, without luck.
I think there was more tooling than commonly credited used to wind damascus to make the twists match on a pair of barrels. This probably the cause of Parker's failure in barrel manufacture.
Best, Austin
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 09:35 pm |
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I think "witnessing" could have been done but I have seen a few Parkers and other doubles also that the tubes were a less than perfect match.
I don,t know if we will ever know for sure.....
Dave....
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 10:40 pm |
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Found Austin's D4 Four Iron 'Turkish' Crolle with a bit more apparent ribband weld line
Last edited on Sat Jan 24th, 2009 10:41 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 12:25 am |
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| Dave's suggestion would be the most plausible considering the amount of time it would take to find and match barrel tube blanks with left and right twists that match. Of course we have seen examples of grade 2 guns with mismatched barrels. Attached Image (viewed 312 times):
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 02:29 am |
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Drew; 56553 is also a 10/12 two barrel set, but it is a Dam 3; I think that is the 10 ga barrel.
Best, Austin
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David Purnell
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Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 11:01 am |
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They could have been witnessed with the marks matched together under the rib.
Dave
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 12:34 pm |
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| Dean Romig's statement clarifies a point that is being misunderstood by many readers, and probably more than a couple posters on this subject. D2, D3, and D4 as described in the Serialization Book and the Parker Brothers stock books are gun grades, not a description of quality of barrel. The stock books prove that Damascus barrels of different grades were installed on guns of the same grade. A D2 is a Damascus barrel gun of Grade 2 (G or E). A D4 is a Damascus barrel gun of Grade 4 (C). Stock book entries specify different number of "blades" in Damascus barrels installed on the same grade of gun. As Dean says, "The scroll count crosses the grades." I hope his statement clears up some statements made in this and other threads.
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 12:56 pm |
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What does the 'D 4' indicate on this Grade 3 (D) gun?
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