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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:18 am |
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Bob,My 84709 is a 12ga,30"barrels on a 2 frame also but mine is a pistol grip gun.I guess they are not too distant cousins.We should get them together sometime.
Drew,Sorry for not responding sooner on your previous post(I just noticed it!) Yes Oscar sent me an email that he was sending my finished barrels back and that they were the finest 6 iron crolle he had ever seen on a Parker....But I am sure there are more out there somewhere.
Dean...Now now let it go 
Dave....
Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:26 am by Dave Suponski
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:42 am |
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| Sounds like a good idea, maybe this spring in RI.
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 12:22 pm |
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| Thanks again Dave, Bob, and Dean. Possibly someone who knows Don Kaas could ask him to look at the flats of his Grade 6 with 4 Iron Crolle. If it says D4, Bill is likely correct.
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David Purnell
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:18 pm |
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FWIW
I checked eight Damascus barrels last night. Without listing each one, this is what I found.
My highest grade Damascus gun is a DH, or grade 3, with D4 stamped on the barrel flats. The Damascus pattern is 4 scrolls with 4 blades.
Six guns I checked are GH, or grade 2, with D only stamped on the barrel flats. the Damascus pattern on all six guns is 3 scrolls with 4 blades. D2 is listed in the serialization book, but not on the barrel flats.
One gun is an early dollar grade gun, with no marking on the barrel flats, D only listed in the serialization book, and it's Damascus pattern is 3 scroll with 6 blades.
So to recap my limited findings:
1) My grade 3 has four iron crolle Damascus.
2) My grade 2's have three iron crolle Damascus.
3) Low grade guns I have seen are stamped with "D" only on the barrel flats. The higher gun grades, or higher Damascus grades were stamped on the barrel flats D4, D5, D6, etc.
Dave
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:21 am |
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I've redone the chapter on the website regarding counting irons with additional illustrations and definitions of crolle damascus terminology. Hope this helps!
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_0dgmfqfgm
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:53 am |
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| Great job Drew, I find the Lefever Two Iron very pleasing. I think that will answer a lot of questions we had on Damascus terminology.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 02:34 am |
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I looked it over Drew and it's getting clearer. I'm going to read it another time or two to get it straight. Looks like there are still a couple of contradictions but that's just probably my very literal mind. Like iron and steel are twisted to create a crolle or rod but then you have 6-iron crolle in which iron takes on a totally different meaning.Thanks Drew, you really go the distance. I'll get the hang of it.
Dean
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Mike Poindexter
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 12:48 pm |
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| Drew: As I look at Charlie's 6-iron A grade on the first page of this thread and on the linked website it seems that the far barrel has weld lines that are easier to see than the barrel in the foreground. It also seems that the far barrel may only have 2 full scrolls and 2 half scrolls between weld lines, equalling 3-iron crolle. Am I misreading the picture, or just not getting it? Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:05 pm by Mike Poindexter
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:42 pm |
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Good eye Mike! I agree the ribband of the right barrel appears to have a weld line down the middle. Here's the pic again
If you'll zoom the image, I believe 5 full scrolls are seen however.
It would be helpful if more guys would report their grade and D mark. Don-what does your BH with 4 Iron have??
I found this GH with only the 'D' as Dave reported
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:44 pm |
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| I think when we request PGCA letters on high grade Damascus guns, we should ask Mark to tell us whether the Stock Book entry includes a mention of "4 blade", "6 blade" or other comment about barrel type. It is my opinion that most Grade 2 guns that are nothing special have 3 blade barrels, but stock book entries specifying "4 blade" barrels on Grade 2 guns are seen. I wonder if those guns have a D4 marking on the barrel flat? As I said in a previous post, my 16 gauge hammer gun, Grade 2, has a Stock Book entry specifying "4 blade" but, unfortunately, does not have a barrel flat marking specifying the 4 blade feature.
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:59 pm |
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Thanks Bill. Do I understand correctly that the stock books and Serialization book may have both "4 blade", "6 blade" and/or D2, D3, etc.?
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David Purnell
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 02:13 pm |
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I would really like to help make this easier to understand, but just when I think it's making sense, it gets cloudy again.
Drew and Mike, I see your point of the far barrel, but in the near barrel I still see six iron crolle.
Bill, It seems that the stock books are at odds with Doc Drew on the definition of blade. I believe that when the stock books refer to blade, they are talking about what Doc Drew is referring to as scroll.
Dean is correct. We have to get on the same page, or we are going in circles.
Dave
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 04:48 pm |
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| The entries in the Stock Books can be viewed in Volume 2 of The Parker Story in the chapter on the paper trail. I'll take a look myself to see whether there are any examples of "blade" reference. OK, I looked and did not see any reference to "blade" in the barrel columns in TPS. However, in a Stock Book reference in 1887, a page full of D2 top lever guns shows eight guns with "4 blade" notations, three guns with no notations. One of the eight with "4 blade" notation is a PT gun, possibly an error in transcription, or, also possibly a 0 or 1 Grade gun with Damascus barrels. They made a few of those. Just for your information, the oddball entry is serial number 54,361. It is an 8 pound 14 ounce ten gauge top action gun. Wonder what kind of barrels it really has? I have found a couple of those grade 1 or 0 Damascus top action guns. I shot one in last years L.C.Smith Parker Challenge Hammer Gun event. Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:07 pm by Bill Murphy
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David Purnell
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:10 pm |
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Thanks Bill, good idea. I hadn't thought of TPS. I'll check it out tonight.
Dave
PS- Bill, I have one of those grade 1 Damascus top action guns. Its listed in the serialization book as Dam 1. It might add to the discussion of this thread, but I can't remember what is stamped on the flats, or how many crolle in the pattern. Its been held hostage in Kansas City since last July. Maybe I'll see it by the Southern this year, but I'm not holding my breath.
Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:19 pm by David Purnell
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:12 pm |
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Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:47 pm by Bill Murphy
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David Purnell
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:23 pm |
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Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 11:14 pm by David Purnell
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:30 pm |
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| Thanks again Bill. At least we can say with confidence that Parker used no One Iron barrels and I have never seen a Two Iron hammerless barrel. I believe the D1 and D2 indicate a damascus barrel grade rather than "One Blade" or "Two Blade"
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:50 pm |
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| David, what is the serial number and configuration of your D1? Mine is #41,238, has very large Damascus pattern, is a 28" #1 frame 12 gauge. I will check the barrel flat markings next time I see it. Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:52 pm by Bill Murphy
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Fred Preston
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:51 pm |
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| This is a pic of the barrel flats of #116628, a GH 16ga with unstruck barrel weight of 4/10. I also have #131147, a GH 12ga with unstruck barrel weight of 3/15 with the same marking except where the 16 has a "4", it has a "3". Both are 28" on a #1 frame. Attached Image (viewed 77 times):
 Last edited on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 05:54 pm by Fred Preston
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David Purnell
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 06:02 pm |
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Bill Murphy wrote: David, what is the serial number and configuration of your D1? Mine is #41,238, has very large Damascus pattern, is a 28" #1 frame 12 gauge. I will check the barrel flat markings next time I see it.
Bill, I'll have to check my book for the particulars when I get home and post later tonight. It is D1 in the book, grade 1 in the letter, and also is stamped 1 on the water table. It has a very large Damascus pattern which was why I sent it off to Dale for a re-finish.
Dave
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