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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 02:48 am |
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I believe the "D2" or "D3" or "D4" or "D5" or "D6" refers to the number of "crolle" (or curls or twists or rosettes) within a wound band of Damascus between weld lines. Hence the D4 would have three full "crolle" (or curls or twists or rosettes) and on the outer borders a half-crolle (the weld line cutting the outermost crolles in half) yielding a full count of 4-crolle referred to as D4. Then D5 would have four full crolle and the outer crolle on either side against the weld line again being cut in half to yield a full count of 5-crolle and referred to as D5. I believe Dave Suponski's BH barrels have 5 full crolle with the typical half-crolle against the weld line for a full count of 6-crolle on a grade 5 gun. One would think a set of 6-crolle barrels to be reserved for a grade 6 or AH gun but, once again, it is an example of the crossing over of barrel grades to gun grades.
Below is an example of D4 crossing the grades. The above example is a sixteen gauge 0-frame GH with 26" D4 barrels. The lower example is a twenty gauge 0-frame DH with 28" D4 barrels The only difference in the markings of the barrels aside from WK on one set and A on the other is the 3 nearest to the breach end indicating the grade 3 for D
And, on both sets of barrels there are three full crolle with a half-crolle on either side of the band at the weld line yielding four full crolle or D4.
Attached Image (viewed 158 times):
 Last edited on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 02:53 am by Dean Romig
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 03:07 am |
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| On the 28 gauge 0-frame 24" DHE there is a nice set of D4 barrels with three full crolle and a half-crolle on either side of the band against the weld line. The difference here is that the crolle are comprised of only three blades of steel and three blades of iron yet still are D4 grade of Damascus. Attached Image (viewed 158 times):
 Last edited on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 03:09 am by Dean Romig
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David Purnell
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 02:58 pm |
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Dean,
Very good analysis. I have learned more about Damascus on this thread than I ever knew before. I will check my Damascus guns this evening and see if there is anything further to report.
Dave
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 03:33 pm |
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Dave, I don't know if my analysis is absolutely correct but it is my best shot at it. Drew and others may know better.
Dean
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 09:00 pm |
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Sorry guys-back from Sonoita. Still Mearns & Blues on Las Cienegas  along with LOTS of bird hunters towing 4 and 6 hole dog trailers. Most seem to be heading on down 82 to Patagonia or 83 to Parker Canyon. Found what is apparently the county Mearns Holiday Inn - a big Juniper among the Oaks with the lower branches and ground covered with quail poop  Every bird for miles must be roosting there at night. Never seen anything like it.
Unfortunately, the setter split/avulsed a nail. The bleeding had stopped until after his bath when, after running around the house, my long suffering wife observed "Why is there blood all over the carpet?" Oops
Here's my thoughts. This is Charlie's AHE marked D6
Here's Dave's BH barrel, with a very interesting SIX Iron Crolle pattern. I zoomed the image, and there are 5 scrolls between the ribband weld lines which look like a wide squished scroll  The 'messy' ribband weld lines make it slight less 'finest' compared to Charlie's barrels however.
DAVE: I thought Dr Gaddy called that pattern 6 Iron? BTW: I have never seen a 5 Iron pattern.
If indeed it's 6 iron, and since the flats are stamped DD5, the '5' does NOT refer to the number of irons/blades/rods in the pattern.
In addition, Grades 2 through 6 are found with 4 Iron Crolle, BUT DIFFERENT 4 IRON CROLLE. If Parker bothered to document the superintendant of the gun works on the flats, why would they put a generic '4' which could mean FOUR different damascus patterns.
I still believe the 'D number' on the flats represents the damascus quality/pattern, but could be wrong
Last edited on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 09:30 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 09:26 pm |
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Dean: "The difference here is that the crolle are comprised of only three blades of steel and three blades of iron yet still are D4 grade of Damascus."
In order to communicate effectively, we must speak the same 'language.' Blades,rods,iron,rope,stripes all mean the same thing and form the scroll. The blades are made of thin strips of alternating iron and steel which form the leaves within the scroll. The more rods, the smaller the scrolls, and the fewer the leaves. The number of leaves mean nothing. The large scrolls in this lower grade 2 Iron 'Boston' pattern have 6 or 7 leaves
Complex NON-CROLLE billets may have 80 tiny strips of iron and steel, but do not produce 'scrolls' nor 'leaves' in the finished pattern
What we need are some Grade 5 and 6 guns with 4 Iron crolle to see how the flats are stamped.
Last edited on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 09:58 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 10:14 pm |
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SOMEONE PLEASE LOOK AT THEIR BERNARD BARREL FLATS. 'Rose pattern' Bernard II is a THREE Iron pattern.
Aren't C grade guns with Bernard barrels stamped B4 or Bern4??
Last edited on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 10:39 pm by Drew Hause MD
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 10:43 pm |
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| Drew, I just looked at two sets and the B is there, but no number near the B. There is a 4 far to the right, but that is the grade marking. Just for your information, the little "C" is there the same as with the Damascus barrels we have been looking at.
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 10:48 pm |
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Thanks Bill. Foiled again
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 10:59 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 09:04 pm by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 11:00 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 09:05 pm by Bruce Day
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 11:00 pm |
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Drew, would this be D6 on my Bh ? Hope the picture comes out clear enough
Thanks Bob
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 11:11 pm |
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Thanks Bruce and I'll add that pic to the 'Parker Hammerless Damascus Quality' album
That is 6 Iron Crolle Bob. How is the flat stamped? Can you post an ultra close up pic?
AND I found another BH with 4 Iron Crolle. This is Don Kaas', and the ribband weld lines stand out nicely. How is it stamped Don??
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 12:05 am |
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| I'll try Drew. Not very good with this cheap digital camera. Attached Image (viewed 114 times):
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 12:13 am |
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| Thanks Bob. Very similar pattern as Dave's BH, and again, not quite the aesthetic quality as the 6 Iron used on AH guns. Are the flats stamped D5 or D6??
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 12:40 am |
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The barrel flats are marked with DD C 5
The C is close to the barrel hook.
Bob
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:10 am |
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Bob,Whats the serial number of your BH? Mine is 84709 Those barrels look great!
Dave....
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Drew Hause MD
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:20 am |
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| Dave and Bob: Is the '5' stamped above the DD or toward the breech indicating the Grade?
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:37 am |
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Thanks Dave, 85429 30" full and full 2 frame with a straight stock.
Hope to get out this spring for a some crow hunting.
Bob
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:40 am |
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Drew, what we need is a "Glossary of Terms" as they are used in the manufacture and identification of composit barrels. I'm happy to share any information I can but for now my information seems somewhat flawed and until we are all on the same page it likely will continue to be. This confusion may be only the result of using the different (wrong?) terms to describe the same thing. It is frustrating to try to discuss something when one person is speaking Greek and the other is speaking Norwegian.
If, as you say, the Damascus barrels are graded independently of the grade of the gun, what are the defining characteristics of a particular barrel grade? How do we tell one barrel grade from another? It must be by certain visible and discernable details of manufacture that they are graded and not by a simple stamp on the flats that tell us so. Please don't answer these questions now; not before we have a "Glossary of Terms" so we can all understand and be able to look at an example and see and be able to describe them exactly as the next person would. Wouldn't you agree?
My Best Regards, Dean
PS, And Drew, I admire your dedication and diligence in researching and cataloging all that you have on the Damascus Knowledge site. . . (and that's not what someone else accuses me of doing )
Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 01:45 am by Dean Romig
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