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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 09:07 pm |
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Mr Damico:
Thanks for you help on the pics-much better.
Al ZInn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 09:15 pm |
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| Al, if you are not now a PGCA member, we would like for you to join. You have a good start on a collection and once bitten with the Parker bug, its hard to resist just another gun.
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Bruce Day
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Frank DAmico
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 5th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1086 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 09:32 pm |
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| Albert, my pleasure.
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Fred Preston
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 4th, 2005 |
| Location: | Red Haw, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 690 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 10:09 pm |
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| #12990 is listed as a 16ga. grade 3 28" laminated steel lifter. I could find no guns smaller than 12ga on the preceeding 3 pages.
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Dave Suponski
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 1027 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 10:48 pm |
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| Hey Guy,s Just a question. Should this gun have a DHBP? Thanx,Dave
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Dave....
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 11:16 pm |
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| I'm a Lefever guy myself. Most of my Lefevers look like your wonderful little 16, well preserved and lightly used but not much case hardening color. Granddad's 1887 E Grade 12 gauge pigeon gun is still here and get used occasionally. Most of the rest of them are Damascus barrelled tens. My favorites after the Parkers.
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 11:21 pm |
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| Dave, I don't know when dogs head butts came about, maybe later than this gun. However, the PGCA letter may indicate a restock. When did the dogs head (rubber butt) start being standard equipment?
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Austin Hogan
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 15th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 1600 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 11:56 pm |
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My earliest DHBP is 23150. Plain steel (not ssbp) continued through the 30,000 range. First DHBP is a good question for Parkers Found.
Best, Austin,
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Austin Hogan
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| Posts: | 1600 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2006 11:57 pm |
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Dave; Can you answer the question on articulated firing pins on the other thread?
Best, Austin
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James T. Kucaba
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 12:20 am |
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I bought the 20ga Lifter Gun SN 10165 from the Jim Parker Colection at the October of 2005 Julia Gun Auction and it came with Jim Parker's PGCA letter about the gun so I see no need to get another Parker Letter that will have the same information.
The letter to Jim Parker is dated July 3, 2002.
It says that the gun was ordered on August 2, 1877 and shipped to J.J. Palmer of Belfontane Ohio on October 6, 1877.
The gun is a O-Quality Hammer Gun with 26 inch Twist Steel Barrels.
The stock is a pistol grip and has a skeleton butt plate .
The length of pull is 14 and 5/8 inches ... The drop at the heel is 3 and 3/4 inches.
The gun weighs in at a whopping 5 pounds 9 ounces.
The cost of the gun was $50.00 plus $20.00 for extra hand work, amd 65 cents for expenses on barrels ... So the total cost to J.J. Palmer was $70.65 in 1877.
The letter also states that the pattern was 150 pellets of #8 shot in a 24 inch circle at 30 yards.
There is a story about the gun written by Jim Parker in the Parker Pages Volume 10 Issue 2 --- March & April 2003.
One if the interesting things about this gun that the Parker Letter dosen't mention is the fact that it doesn't have a drop checkering anywhere on the wood and I'm pretty sure that all of the wood original.
Shortly after I got the gun I posted a question on the PGCA website asking if anyone keew how many Parker 20 Gauge Lifter Guns were built ... And someone here said that the Parker Story indicates that only 13, 20 Gauge Lifter Guns were ever built and my reasearch shows that my SN 10165 was the THIRD 20 Gauge Lifter Gun built.
I think I still have some photos of the gun stored on my computer somewhere ... If I can find them I would gladly Email them to someone who can post them on the PGCA website for me.
Jim Kucaba ... Phoenix, AriZOOna ... Email: JimKucaba@aol.com
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"The price of critics NEVER changes ... They're ALWAYS a dime a dozen !"
"Those Who Matter Don't Judge Me ... Those Who Judge Me Don't Matter !"
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Larry Frey
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 12:35 am |
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| Page 269 FIG. 8.36 of TPS vol. 1 shows serial number13900 a grade 2 under-lifter. The engraving pattern on this gun looks very similar to Al's gun. It states that there were some T2 guns made but no 16 gages are listed.
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Dave Miles
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1730 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:00 am |
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| Some more pics, maybe Frank can adjust them. Attached Image (viewed 232 times):
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Dave Miles
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:00 am |
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| another Attached Image (viewed 219 times):
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Dave Miles
PGCA Member
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| Location: | Michigan USA |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:00 am |
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| one more Attached Image (viewed 235 times):
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Frank DAmico
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 5th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1086 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:15 am |
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| Pics look fine this time. I really like the lightning bolts above the firing pin sockets. Sorry about the incorrect terminology.Whomever had care of this gun over the years did a fine job. Last edited on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:17 am by Frank DAmico
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Austin Hogan
PGCA Member
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| Posts: | 1600 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 10:55 am |
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Is that gun plain twist or laminated? The "T" with umbrellas over and under predates this gun by 5000 numbers, and this gun carries an "M" in that place on the barrel flats. Does the rib carry "Plain Twist"?
Best, Austin
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 11:11 am |
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The 2 grade engraving was in a state of flux through the lifter era. The checking pattern looks like 2. That breech filing was short lived; and a bit of a mystery.
Laminated barrels seem dominant in 16 ga guns in the 10 -2000- s/n range according to Charlie's book.
Jim Kucaba; does that 20 ga have a skeleton or plain steel buttplate?
Best, Austin
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 11:17 am |
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Mr. Murphy:
At some point, I will get out and scan photos of an Lefever EE Grade 12 from 1900 that I had 15 years ago- lots of case & INCREDIBLE wood- Bill Elliot in Texas thought it was exhibition grade. However, the one I really miss was an EE from 1893 - not nearly as nice as the 1900 gun, but the engraving was WONDERFUL. You'd swear, the dogs on the sideplates were about to bark! But, I guess wer're getting off topic. I sent Dave Miles some more pics of the 16-perhaps he will post them today.
AL Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 12:06 pm |
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Mr. Hogan:
I just sent Dave Miles a pic of the rib markings. They just say "Twist". I think Dave will put the picture up soon.
Al ZInn
____________________
Albert E. Zinn
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2006 12:16 pm |
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| Al, the order book entry may indicate the grade of your gun. The comment that this gun may be a T2 is worth thinking about. Grade in the order books is determined by price, the actual grade seldom is mentioned. However, pricing is changed on a regular basis and the grade may still be a mystery after examining the PGCA letter. It looks a lot more like a 2 than a 1. Larry's comment about "no 16 T2s listed" would indicate that any T2 16s are probably included in the missing Stock Book #5. To review some facts of Parker research, the compilation of the Serialization Book did not include research into the Order Books, only the Stock Books. Your gun should be posted in Order Book #4 which is available to PGCA researchers. Last edited on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 12:22 pm by Bill Murphy
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