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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 08:59 pm |
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I have the opportunity to purchase a lovely 16ga lifter action Parker. The gun is tight as a vault, wood is beautiful, not much metal finish, but straight, complete and honest.
My problem is that there is a fair amount of light pitting in both barrels at aprrox 10 inches out from the breech-about the end of the forearm. I would buy this gun to hunt with - not a wall hanger. I have no problem with low pressure handloading to black powder pressures, but I need your best advice as to wheher some light pitting is probably OK, or if I should just walk away.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Al Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 09:16 pm |
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It seems almost every day in some way we miss the kind words and advice that Oscar might give to questions like this one. . .
Your barrels should really be examined by an expert before attempting to shoot it.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 09:54 pm |
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Yes but what is an expert going to say?
Here is what I would do. I would try to get an idea of how much barrel thickness was left. At least check out the bore measurement and see if it corresponds to what a 16 ga should be. If you have sufficient barrel thickness, then look for dents, seam cracks, etc, if none, look carefully to see how deep the pits are. If they look to be shallow and caused by surface corrosion, load some light loads and shoot it, work up to heavier loads.
Its a 16ga on what should be a 1 frame, not the thinner barreled 0 frame, so unless the barrels have been honed significantly, the gun should be very shootable. The barrel pits at the 10" mark, an area of maximum pressure is cause for concern so I would look carefully at them. We've heard of instances where puffs of smoke bleed through seam cracks in Damascus guns.
Last edited on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 09:55 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 10:40 pm |
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| Lifter....16 gauge.... write check.
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 02:48 am |
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Bill is indeed correct; if you are starting a collection, 16 ga lifter guns are scarce and interesting. If you become a serious early Parker collector, you may spend many years looking for another.
Best, Austin
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 11:33 am |
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Thanks for your reply. THe frame is in fact an "O" frame. Does that alter your advice? The barrels show no dents or cracks thru the outside. I do not have the proper tools to measure the barrells. Obviously, I can get it done afterwards, but I will own the gun at that point.
Tks, Al
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Albert E. Zinn
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Louis Rotelli
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 12:00 pm |
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Al,
If you want an expert to look at the barrels and give you some definative advice send them to Kirk Merrington in Texas. If The barrels can be repaired, he can do it. If they can't you can insert tubes for a 20 ga and still use modern loads in it.
Lou
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 01:11 pm |
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| It doesn't matter whether it has barrels, buy it. The Parker Story estimates that 37 lifter Twist Steel guns were made in 16 gauge. You will never get stuck with it, barrels or no barrels.
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Larry Frey
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 01:46 pm |
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| Bill, your advise to write the check (with or without barrels) was without the price being given. I assume there is a price point at which you also would pass on this gun. Could you share that information. Larry
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 01:48 pm |
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The O frame has thinner barrrels and because barrel wall thickness is a major safety matter, will mean that you need to be more cautious about shooting it. You'll need to check the barrel wall thickness to feel comfortable, but obviously this is a rare gun and you have several people who know what they are talking about urging you to not pass it up. I would load some minimal pressure loads and work gradually up to higher pressures. Still, if they are thin, the comment about inserting 20ga tubes is right on, and you can shoot 1 oz loads that way.
I'm inclined to the later hammerless top lever Parkers, but these hammer lifters are very ergonomic and have a charm.
Oscar Gaddy used to state that .025" was what he considered minimum wall thickness.
Last edited on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 01:50 pm by Bruce Day
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John Davis
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 02:06 pm |
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| Bruce, just because it's an 0 frame doesn't necessarily mean it has thin barrels. My 16 gauge (0 frame), top lever, hammer gun features 28 inch Damascus barrels with unstruck weight of 3lbs 14 oz. Total wieght of the gun is 7 lbs 2 oz. And as we all know, Fred Kimble wasn't going own any ol' thin barreled gun. Last edited on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 03:12 pm by John Davis
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 02:20 pm |
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| Right on, John. I remember measuring the wall thickness on Fred's little bird gun and being rather astounded at how much metal was in there. My 30" 0 Frame 16 hammer gun is one of a flock of consecutive 16 gauge hammer guns, all around 7 1/2 pounds or a couple of ounces more or less as specified in the stock book. The barrels on mine are marked 3-11. The chamber walls are not too awful thick, but they are as thick as all these other 16 gauge 0 frames that are so popular today. My presumption was that Albert had already passed judgement on the price as long as it is a "good gun". Last edited on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 02:24 pm by Bill Murphy
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 02:35 pm |
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A good point to remember is that Parker patterned early 16's with 7/8 ounce of shot, over 2 1/4 drams of DuPont bulk. This is a lighter load than the lightest modern factory twenty.
The earliest 16 listed is a lam3, 12990. About half of the lifter 16's made before s/n 25000 are lam2 and lam 3. One should be especially careful to inspect laminated barrels for seaminess. The seam in a 12 ga Lam3 barrel is shown.
I don't think the Laminated barrels, or seaminess would influence collector value.
Best, Austin
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 04:23 pm |
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Gentlemen:
I thank you all for your excellent advice. I will not say the price until I own it. I will say that it's $500.00 more than I would like to pay, but heck, I've wasted $500.00 lots of times! The gentlemen's point about 20ga inserts as a last resort is something I have not thought of, and becomes a nice "back-up plan".
What can I expect to pay to have the barrels re-conditioned, polished, re-browned, etc.?
Thanks, AL
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 05:03 pm |
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| $200-300
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 06:21 pm |
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| Sometimes barrels just need to be cleaned up in an evening at home. Less messing is more with Parkers, but Dale Edmunds in Kansas City doing them for what Don said does a nice job. Some Damascus or twist barrels turn out better than others, no matter what he does. Last edited on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 06:55 pm by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 27th, 2006 12:57 am |
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Gentlemen:
I have thought over your kind advice thru the weekend. I intend to go back and have one last careful look at this gun on Monday and probably buy it. I realize that it's difficult, since there are no pictures, but let me say the obvious; numbers match on receiver, barrels & forearm. Forearm is latch-type, not earlier style "cross-latch". Stock is rounded pistol grip, dark reddish walnut with some figure, beautiful buttplate with perfectly aligned screws. Hammers match and cock perfectly and to the same plane. Receiver and barrels have little outside finish-all patina at this point. Water table has milled recesses, which I assume are characteristic of "O" frames. BBL length 28".
So: What is it worth?
Thanks to all. If I get it, I'll post some pics.
Al Zinn
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John Davis
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Posted: Sun Aug 27th, 2006 02:06 am |
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| I can't say what she's worth but I know I'd love to own her. Hope you take the leap. John D.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun Aug 27th, 2006 11:57 am |
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| It is really an important Parker artifact, high condition or not. The lightening cuts in the water table are a nice touch but not present on all 0 frame hammer guns. A good buttplate with good screws is a great first step not present in most abused guns. Pits in the barrels would be the last thing I would worry about until I got it paid for and home. Serial number?
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ED J. MORGAN
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Posted: Sun Aug 27th, 2006 01:56 pm |
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| Al. You have alot of value in the present gun condition, if you blow the barrels you will loose collector value. Use 20 gauge tubes to preserve value and for peace of mind ie. safety. regards ed.morgan
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