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Kevin Finnerty
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 03:04 am |
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Good point..... Especially with respect to the beautiful hunting guns we still take afield.... However, I believe we are poised for some gains in the high level engraved guns.... (your excuse to get a great engraved high condition 20 28 or 410) ....
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Josh Loewensteiner
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 03:50 pm |
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The Stack BHE 28ga was a super gun. I fell in love with that gun at the October Hartford Show before it was sold at LJ's in early November. I know the hammer price was $75,000 on that gun. Next bid was 80k and when you add 15% buyers premium that would have made it cost 92k. Suprisingly there was only 2 bidders for that particular gun after 35k. His BHE was probably was of the nicest Parkers, period.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 05:16 pm |
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| No arguement from me on Stack's Parkers. High grade, high original condition, very desirable configuration with very desirable provenance. In the case of those guns, they are what they are and brought out bidders who can appreciate them and can afford to give them a nice comfy home and may not even be the center-piece of a fine collection. Such Parkers will always be beyond my financial reach and to tthat I say "Amen". No sour grapes from me in these matters. I am irked however by those individuals selling guns that have been altered, 'reconditioned' or otherwise 'messed-with but the asking price would seem to reflect a high grade, high original condition Parker.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 07:13 pm |
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| A nice what looks like a two barrel set Robert Runge A1-Special upgrade sold today on Gunbroker. I hope one of us ended up with it.
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Josh Loewensteiner
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 08:23 pm |
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Dean- You're post is dead on the money, but its not unique to the gun trade. Other collector arenas suffer from less than reputables sellers trying to make a home run on a newbie collector.
In terms of guns not bringing more money, like cars or art or any other collector items, I think this is a conundrum. Real high end collector guns are expensive, and guns already do bring in the 6 and 7 figures. Parkers sell in the 6 figure range quite frequently.
Still- when someone finds out how much the guns sold for at LJ's auctions, please post. C'mon guys- an A-1 Special 28ga 2 barrel set straight out of the original owner! It doesnt get any better than that for the Parker small bore nut!
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 09:38 pm |
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Josh, you may be right but I don't see it. I have yet to hear of any Parker breaking 6 figures. I'm sure it happens, but not often.
Look at the collector car world - cars made 35 years ago regularly bring $50K and higher even if restored. Not many Parkers can make that claim. An unrestored clean Hemi Cuda or Shelby Mustang will bring $250K plus as a minimum.
I am sure some of that is 'churning', i.e. a small group of friends who unfortunately sell back and forth to pump up the value of the cars. But the same could happen in the Parker world.
It seems most sales of high condition, high grade Parkers happens in dimly lit rooms and no one dares talk about it.
Which may not be entirely bad!
But then I note you state 'guns' and not 'Parkers'. My argument is based around Parkers being undervalued, not guns in general. I've said this before - I can't figure out why someone would pay $250K for a Colt Single Action in the first place. I wouldn't take the best Colt SA ever made over a decent VHE.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 10:30 pm |
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| Greg, the auction world is usually "open to the public" on the internet for realized values. One six figure auction that was not available on the internet was our little local tractor auctioneer who sold the great Remington era AHE .410 a couple/few years ago for $116,000 plus PA sales tax, if that tax was charged.
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Jeff Mulliken
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Posted: Mon Jan 16th, 2006 11:00 pm |
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It's all about the numbers. There were 13,790 Shelby Mustangs made, all between '65 and '70. There are 5000 members in the Shelby American Automobile Club.....
If as few Parkers were made as Shelby Mustangs, and if side by side shotguns had as wide an appeal as cars......none of us would be able to afford one.
Well, at least I would not be able to.
Jeff
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:17 am |
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| Jeff, there were millions of Mustangs made. Popular lore is that there were fewer than 5000 high grade Parkers made. Don't forget we are talking about the high end guns and cars.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:52 am |
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| Who is the "hidden identity" guy who owned all the great guns in the Littlejohn auction? Every gun he owned apparently has his name engraved on a nameplate but the catalog information neglects to identify him. Anyone at the preview would know his name. Who was he? "Beverly Hills businessman".
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:58 am |
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Greg, it's not just the high-end guns. When it comes to asking prices on Parker guns the only ones I see that seem to be fairly represented (dollar-wise) are the D grade guns. C grade and above are spiraling ever upward (often beyond that value that their condition should dictate) as are the Trojan and V and P grades (the P understandably being more scarce in nice condition) but a run-of-the-mill Trojan in worn or mediocre condition in 16 or 20 ga. with asking price often hovering just short of $3k ?? Give me a break, that's D grade pricing in like condition! Sure, a Parker is a well made gun but just because it has the word Parker engraved on it is no indication that it has been well cared for and is worth that price.
I know, I know... we've been here before... "the value of a Parker is the price someone is willing to pay" (steps down from soapbox)
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Eric Eis
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 01:20 am |
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Ok Dean, you are not going to like what I am going to say...Butyour words,
"Trojan and V and P grades (the P understandably being more scarce in nice condition) but a run-of-the-mill Trojan in worn or mediocre condition in 16 or 20 ga. with asking price often hovering just short of $3k ?? Give me a break, that's D grade pricing in like condition! "
Well if I can pickup a 20 or 16 DHE for 3K show them all my way.
I understand what you are saying, that the prices in the last couple of years have goten out of hand and most of the guns you see in the 2 to 4K price range have serious problems, but there are people out there paying it "knowing" the gun is not straight! Think about the skeet gun that I lost, it had problems and about $750 to$1,000 dollars in correctionsto fix it, but someone went to the trouble to undercut that deal because he thought it was worth it and didn't care what other people on this board thought of him, so I am not sure where the correct price is. Or the honor Eric
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 01:36 am |
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Dean, I think you are missing my point - It's not concerning prices of low grade guns. They seem to be very healthy. It's that the truly nice, high grade guns don't bring the money one would think. $65K for a mint small bore Parker? There are probably only a handful of Parkers in that league. It should be selling for much more.
For exampe, if a Henry rifle will bring $200K, so should a similar Parker - if not more.
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Eric Eis
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 01:47 am |
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Greg, I agree.
Eric
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 02:39 am |
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I read the current issue of Field and Stream while waiting for a haircut Saturday morning. I apologize for not remembering the author, but it carried an article on restoring a Sterlingworth for the field. Quoted cost (reblue, recase, reface, alter stock and refinish, replace pad with Hawkins replica, fit choke tubes) was $2475. This does not include the cost of the Sterlingworth. A new Ruger S x S lists at $1995 in twelve gauge, with few options available.
A VH with no rust, no barrel dents, and no stock cracks, at less than $3000 is probably the last great bargain of our era.
If you recoil at that, remember that in 1932, the Winchester 21 was sold over the counter at $59.50. The 1932 Parker catalog lists the Trojan at $60.50.
Best, Austin
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Bob Vilmur
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 05:11 am |
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| Regarding the Beverly Hills businessman matter, when I studied the ads earlier this month, I noted that the ads for several other guns contained the same discription. No name was given. However, an expanded look at the ads might reveal more info.
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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:16 pm |
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Greg regarding the Shelby Mustang/Parker analogy, it holds water. Yes there were millions of regular Mustangs made but they are comparatively cheap. You can buy them all day long for $10,000, and they have all had someone spend at least that much fixing them up. There is little profit in restoring cars, just like shotguns.
It may be that the best deal in cars is to buy a restored American car and drive it till it is worn out, then sell it and buy another. Shotguns are similar. You can still buy a V grade, Sterlingworth, LC or NID in good working order for far less than a new gun made to a similar standard of workmanship.
Jeff
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:22 pm |
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No Greg, I'm not missing your point but perhaps I should be reading between your lines. I will assume that there are a good many collectors of Parker guns who want... no, need to validate their collections as sound investments (as they might have hoped when they started and continued to add to their collections) with the ability to realize substantial profits (read between my lines also) especially now that traditional investment vehicles are generally flat in spite of the good condition of the economy. So, we look toward the wealth we hope to have amassed in our Parker collections. But, like any investment, these too can involve risk and can be disappointing.
So, maybe taking into account that the most desirable Parkers are not performing up to expectations, it might be a good time for some of us to cash in our traditional investment vehicles and buy up the best Parkers we can find, thereby driving up the perceived value (for the short term at least) ? 
Regards, Dean
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:31 pm |
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That's my point, Jeff - the guns and cars that were intially low priced "Regular" products are not my focus one way or the other. But rather, high end Parkers have not kept up with other high end products.
For $65K I could own one of the nicest Parkers, one of maybe 100 or less guns in existence. For $65K I could NOT own one of the nicest Shelby Mustangs, Hemi Cudas, or any one of a dozen other products that have skyrocketed in value.
Dean, I fully agree with you, but as things are I would first need to convince my wife to tell me the password to the mutual fund account - and she ain't talking! 
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2006 12:53 pm |
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A missing factor in this equation is that there are many fine Parkers that have not publicly changed hands in recent times.
Best, Austin
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