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Weston Croft
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 01:27 am |
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Parker, Smith, Fox, and Lefever all seem to be mentioned in the same breath. Ithaca, despite having a long history and some beautiful high grade guns, doesn't seem to make it to the same level of esteem. Why is that?
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Bill Frech
BBS Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:56 am |
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| I'm not sure. Parkers were my first focus when I became interested in vintage American doubles, although I also have some Fox's and Smiths. I, have lately, taken a serious interest in Ithacas. I especiially like the deep engraving on them, and the checkering, grade for grade, I believe is fancier than their competitor's, although I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on its quality. In addition, I believe that high grade Ithaca doubles and SB trap guns are a great value when compared to the others. I remember several very high condition, high grade Ithacas for sale only a few years ago that went begging at very low prices. That seems to have changed somewhat, although from what I see grade for grade, Ithacas are still a relative bargain. I think that Ithaca somehow has the reputation of being a "farmer's or working man's gun". They also had at least 6 different designs which may have given the impression that they coudtn't come up with a design that they thought was good enough to stick with. The Flues and NID had, by far, the most longevity. Unfortunately, the NID was introduced at a difficult time in our enconomy and never gained the reputation it might have. Ithaca also made some very inexpensive guns, which, I believe may have "cheapened" their name. And finally, Ithaca, as far as I can tell, never made itself out to be the "best, finest, most reliable", or any of the other superlative descriptions. Maybe marketing, both then and now, is the reason Ithaca has not gained the same status as the other three.
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Bill
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:32 pm |
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Bill:
I think your analysis of Ithaca is exactly on the mark. Although they built some beautiful high grade guns, they were best known for working class guns of rugged quality.
Aesthetically, they never were as pretty as Parkers or Lefevers. The Flues models are light, but known for cracking frames when stronger ammunition came in to use. NID's are strong, but downright "clubby".
Still, the Knick Single Barrel Trap gun was far superior to any other offering, including Parkers.
Having said all that, the Company was obviously better managed than the other double gun builders, as they had the foresight to get into the repeater business with the model 37, which carried the Company for a long time.
Parker, Fox, Lefever, L.C. Smith - wonderful marques, but Ithaca survived them all!
Regards,
AL Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Richard Flanders
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 01:43 am |
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And survives yet. I grew up with both a mod 12 and an Ithaca 37 and have never been able to figure out why anyone would prefer the Win over the Ithaca. It's the perfect pump design. Light and with bottom ejection, suited for shooting from either side. I sold a gorgeous mod 12 a few years ago after I missed trying for some passing ducks because my gloved thumb became stuck in the loading gate while attempting to reload. That wouldn't happen with an Ithaca....
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King Brown
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:15 am |
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Appreciate the question. I can't say why I don't have an Ithaca while I can say why I don't have a Model 21. "Ithackers" were considered good, hard-shooting guns in the fishing village where I grew up 70 years ago. So I'm inclined to go along with Bill's notion of marketing as probable cause.
I should explain the Model 21. I had heard of the gun and read about it. It had achieved almost sacred status in my expectations by the time I saw one in the rack of a distinguished writer whose father in Alabama had hunted with it for quail. "Is that a Model 21?" I said. Yes, and he handed it to me.
I don't have a sophisticated eye. There was a plainness, a coarseness of line, a certain weight, so much less than I had anticipated from an exemplar in the pantheon of American guns, that the marketing in this case had back-fired, and the M21 disappeared from my dreams like driven smoke.
There was no magic between my hands, no unassisted levitation, as there is with a 16 gauge 0 frame Parker. I was spoiled by a better gun.
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Tom Flanigan
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:30 am |
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Albert Zinn wrote: Still, the Knick Single Barrel Trap gun was far superior to any other offering, including Parkers.
I guess I have a different opinion Al. Although there were more Ithaca single trap guns sold than Parker (also made for a much longer period of time), I have owned both and my perspective is that Parker was the better gun. Grade for grade, it was fitted, engraved and finished better and I much prefer the feel of the Parker over the Ithaca. They are both fine guns, but I think comparing a Parker trap to a Ithaca trap is akin to comparing a Parker double to an Ithaca double. The Ithaca gun, both single and double were good solid guns but not in the same league as the Parker, in my opinion.
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Travis Sims
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:56 am |
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Oh......Tom, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you.
Ithaca has better engraving and cut checkering than Parker. JMHO!
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Tom Flanigan
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:57 am |
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Oh my gosh Travis.....better engraving and checkering??????? Ithaca engraving, except for the very early guns, many of which were absolutely beautifully executed with fine scroll, is overall a pretty sad affair with coarse meaningless cuts that lacked any semblance of style or symmetry. While Ithaca checkering was acceptable in most cases, Parker consistently provided flawlessly executed checkering, even in the lowest grades. Few gun companies, including those with a London address, were consistently as good as Parker in this respect. When was the last time you saw a crooked line or a run over on an original Parker?
I really think that you're just having fun with me Travis. You've got your tongue in cheek for sure. OK....I've calmed down a bit now. Phew...... now where did I leave that bottle of Yukon Jack......I need a swig.
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Travis Sims
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 12:41 pm |
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Tom.........gotcha! lol!
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Albert Zinn
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Richard, King & Tom:
Don't know where to begin:
Richard, I agree with you - I prefer the Model 37 to the Model 12 as a field gun, mainly because of that darned Winchester front trigger guard safety. However, 12 ga Model 37's, tend to have an overly thick grip section, dictated by the rear receiver profile.
Where a Model 37 falls flat on its face, is on the claybird field. Bottom ejection is fine in the field, but an absolute pain in the ____on the skeet field!
A model 12 will digest thousands and thousands of rounds - I'm not sure a 37 will to that extent. If you want to shoot skeet with a pump gun, there is only one....JMHO.
King: Hard to compare a Model 21 to a Parker - they are products of such different eras and design philosophies. Again, I agree, the Parker has it all over the 21 on esthetics and dynamic feel, but a 21 has an almost "industrial art" aura about it that you either like or do not. Finest steel, strongest barrels, etc. Is it as pretty as a Parker - nope, but it will be shooting years after the Parker (and everything else) has come apart. That's Winchester design philosophy -durability first, aesthetics second.
Tom: I agree with you about Parker fit and finish - up to a point. Wood to metal fit - I'm with you - I believe Parker fit was better than just about anybody - even high grade English guns.
I also agree that Ithaca engraving in the Knick era was coarse - I do not care for Bill McGraw's work. But the many Ithaca trap guns that I have examined- I have never owed one, were beautifully stocked and checkered. Certainly trap shooters preferred them to all other single barrel offerings.
Perhaps Ithaca was better at marketing to this particular segment - just as Parker was to the buyer of high grade doubles.
Thanks for the discussion.
Al Zinn
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Weston Croft
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:27 pm |
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| I think Greg Phillips summed it up perfectly when he wrote me that the Ithaca was a Plymouth!
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Tom Flanigan
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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Travis Sims wrote: Tom.........gotcha! lol!
Travis....some how, some way I'm going to make you pay for your indiscretion at my expense. Gosh darn you Travis, I still have Lyme.....don't you have any pity for the sick and helpless?
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Travis Sims
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Boy.......i hope you had your high blood pressure meds close?
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Richard Flanders
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:18 pm |
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Albert: I agree with you on the Ithaca grip profile. Can't imagine who designed it. I recontoured one of mine with a wood rasp to make it more comfortable. Some of the early ones were slimmer as are some of the later ones. Hadn't thought of the skeet issue and bottom ejection as I don't shoot skeet but that makes sense. Sure is nice to have shells fall into the duck boat instead of bouncing off a buddies face or flying into the water. As for taking a beating, I've had and shot 5 Mod 37's since 1965 and have never seen one malfunction in any way, not once. Same with the 2 mod 12's I've; not a single problem.
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:37 pm |
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Richard:
Your comments on the durability of both Model 12's and 37's are well taken. But consider this: both 12's and 37's lock up into the receiver, not the barrel extension. But the 12 has a provision for taking up wear with the adjustable collar - the 37 does not. If a 12 gets loose after a gizzilion rounds, you can tighten it up. If a 37 gets loose, you have no option other than to peen the barrel threads, which I don't consider much of an option.
It's not an issue of build quality - they are both beautifully made, but of design features.
It has never been much of an issue, because the vast majority of 37's are field guns and don't get shot that much, compared to claybird shooting. Back in the heyday of the 40-50's, after doubles died out, and before autoloaders and over/unders took over, the Model 12 was THE repeater for skeet and trap. You could count on one hand the number of 37's on the claybird field.
Don't get me wrong, I love 37's and have owned a lot of them - but there's a reason why the model 12 ruled those days...
Al Zinn
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Bill Rike
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 05:20 pm |
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What a good topic!
I have everything but a Fox. I think Bill French has it right about Ithaca changing designs and never establishing one single, solid image or reputation. Very little legacy. At the heart of it, I think the Ithaca people were salesmen and recognized that a nice living could be made selling a large number of guns, this as opposed to a lesser number of finely finished guns as did Parker. Goes back to image. About the NID, the first time I ever had one apart, I could not help but be impressed with the simplicity of design which addressed issues of reliability and ease of manufacturing. Kudos. Ithaca's post 1915 engraving, like both Fox and Smith, was well adapted to covering a lot of surface quickly - a toss-up there. Checkering is distinctive, but neither good or bad. Metal fit is good. Aesthetics are weak. How can you top the sculpting on a Parker frame?
The M21 is an enigma to me. It is rugged and reliable, but has all the form and finish of, say, a Ruger Red Label. Not trying ot offend anyone here. I have a M21 and two RRLs. I guess it's just a Winchester and we're supposed to get misty over them. I dunno.
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Tom Flanigan
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 05:29 pm |
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| Al, the Ithaca trap was certainly king of the hill with trap shooters. For my part though, I could never see it against an equal grade Parker single trap. We all have our preferences and the old trapshooters seemed to prefer the Ithaca. But for my money, the Parker trap has a feel that none of the others that I have owned can match. I would rate the Parker first, the Ithaca second and the L.C. Smith a distant third. I once owned a Specialty single trap L. C. Smith that had gorgeous wood but felt like a club. Also, take any of them apart and you will see that the internal finish of the Parker is light years ahead of the Ithaca and the L. C. Smith. The L. C. Smith was actually pretty crude and the heavy handed engraving on the Specialty was not all that attractive, in my opinion. I have also owned a Westley Richards single trap. Nice gun but not in the same league as the Parker. A friend has a couple of Purdey single traps on display at the NRA museum. I've never hefted or shot them but the Purdey might well be the ultimate single trap. Net, net, you pay your money and take your choice. Mine will always be Parker.....single or double.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 07:07 pm |
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Albert: I think you're right on all accounts. I doubt Mr Browning had the target fields in mind when he designed what became the mod 37. I have only seen one of it's previous iterations up here, the Rem mod 17? I think it was. It had been a pros skeet gun and was absolutely the smoothest pump gun I have ever worked the slide on, likely due to wear at that point and not design. I think if you stood side by side with a mod 12 and a 37 and shot until one failed, you might be there forever, but over time the Ithaca would certainly have more wear than the mod 12. I think the additional weight of the mod 12 is better for maintaining swing than the lighter 37 also and is truly an ingenious design. I recently sold a 3-gun set of vintage mod 37's to Trigg Davis, a 20, 16, and 12. The 20 has a 26" IC barrel and is in nearly NIB condition and would make an awesome quail or Hun gun. If I ever have the desire again to have a small gauge pump gun I'm going to regret that sale!
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 09:44 pm |
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"The M21 is an enigma to me. It is rugged and reliable, but has all the form and finish of, say, a Ruger Red Label"
Mr. Rike: what an awful thing to say about the M21!
Considering what they bring, somebody must see something more in them than a Ruger!
Regarding the many Ithaca double designs, I believe they were forced to continually re-design to try and improve their product. After going thru Crass, Lewis, Minier and Flues, they finally got the durability thing right with the NID. Probably the strongest American double, after to the M21.
Richard, the nicest 37 I ever had was a 20ga factory skeet from the early 50's. Fancy wood, Ithaca "sunburst" pad, and target style wide rib. Boy, do I wish I had kept that one! The nice thing about 37's is that there are a lot of them out there, and a nice one is not hard to find, but you need to go back to the 50's guns, before interchangeable barrels - those have the best build quality.
Tom, I'm going to bow to you on the Parker trap gun in terms of finish - I have no doubt you are right.
I guess we've been off topic for some time i.e double guns, but it just goes to show that shotgun lovers like all kinds, I guess.
Again, thanks to all
Al Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 10:04 pm |
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I gave my last Ithaca 37 to my grandson last year. It is a pre war twenty with 28 inch barrels and was the lightest shotgun I owned.
I think a reason that Ithaca doubles are ignored is that they put chain store brand names on a companion gun.
Along that line; does anyone own an N R Davis or a Meriden?
Best Austin
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