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Bill Rike
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 11:30 pm |
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Al,
About the M21. Yeah, I know I'm being harsh, and I feel kind of bad talking like that. But bear in mind, I have a 100% original, 100% condition trap model in my cabinet. It's worth a small fortune and I treasure it. But objectively (market conditions aside), if it were layed down next to a VHE trap of similar conditon, the Parker have to get the nod as the nicer gun. Put another way, what does the M21 offer that a Parker doesn't? I think that comparing the fit and finish to a Ruger comes pretty close to the truth. If I wanted to argue with myself, I would point out that Winchester was selling a boatload of M21s druing the depression when everyone else was vapor locked, so maybe I'm still missing something. I totally agree with you about the aesthetics of Ithaca's doubles and the M37 being their salvation to allow them to survive post-war. No doubt.
Ithaca 37. One day this past summer I put 200 rounds through a 1947 37T. It was hot stuff on the first 50 clays, but after that the continual act of turning the gun over for loading took a toll on the wrists (true!) and I couldn't wait to finish. Great gun for the field, just great, but just not the kind of shotgun for a grudge match.
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Lon E. Morris
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 03:38 am |
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I guess someone has to do it!
I think the Parker shotgun grade for grade is probably the most elegant gun ever made!
Most of you have heard me complain about my 12 gauge model 21 being "clubby", and it is, but I can really shoot that gun "clubby" or not!
Now the bad part! What I haven't told you is that I have an original, 16 gauge Model 21, that is the best handling shot gun I have ever held, which is precisely why I own it. It is unique, in that it is factory original with 3 inch chambers (try to find that ammunition), 32 inch barrels choked full and full, straight stock, with B/T forearm. It is perfectly balanced and weighs 7.5 lbs. It will be the last gun to go!
The 16 gauge model 21 is a real bastard child, as it is built on a 20 gauge size frame, but that is where the similarity ends, the action is totally different, including the width of the firing pins. You will never see a factory original 20 gauge/ 16 gauge combo! The model 21 was over engineered, but they don't malfunction and they don't break! They only made 35,000 model 21's start to finish, and all parts are available through CSMC. There one thing a Parker can't do!
You really owe it to yourself to handle an original 16 gauge Model 21, problem is finding one! Sincerely, Lon
Last edited on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 03:40 am by Lon E. Morris
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 12:23 pm |
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Lon:
I think you make a good point. One thing I think we can all agree on, is that 12ga M21's are heavy! But I certainly believe your comments about your 16 ga M21 being the best handling gun you own. I have a 20ga WS-1, WS-2, 1937 build, that weighs 7lb - way heavy for a 20 ga by any traditional thinking, and yet it seems to handle like a dream! I think Winchester had the balance dynamic down perfect.
Similarly, Model 12's are heavy, but they possess the same inherent lively feel that makes them seem lighter than the are.
Bill, what does a M21 offer over a Parker? That's a tough question to answer! To me they are both American thoroughbreds of highest quality, but, as I said earlier, of different eras and design philosophies. To me, the Parker is the ultimate example of the traditional American double gun - a 19th century tradition gun maker carried on into the 20th - this from a guy who loves Lefevers, mind you...
The M21 is just what it is - a distinctly 20th century gun built by a Company famous for highest quality machine-made firearms as Lon has said: over-engineered to an incredible level.
Somebody earlier in this thread likened the Ithaca to a Plymouth. I agree with that. If so, the Parker is a Cadillac. What is the M21? - perhaps a Mercedes-Benz- i.e engineering first, beauty second.
JMHO!!!
Al Zinn
AL Zinn
Last edited on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 12:30 pm by Albert Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Lon E. Morris
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 01:34 pm |
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Al,
The car analogy is correct!
My model 21 12 guage is a '36 standard grade with 30 inch barrels, 3" chambers and splinter forearm, at some point in it's life it was sent back to Winchester and restocked with an incredible english stock, checkered butt. It feels heavy, it feels clubby, but only weighs 7.5 lbs. on the digital scale. Go figure? With standard " 11/4 loads it kicks the snot out of you!
Sincerely, Lon
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 01:47 pm |
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M21's were heavy; but remember they were 8 and 10 gauge guns with 12 and 20 holes in the barrels. They were made for the heaviest Super X loads, that fired shot weights equal to those gauges.
Also remember that the W21 was introduced at $1 less than a Parker Trojan, and was quite comparable in price to a VHE with the same options (BTFE, Vent Rib, Single trigger)in 1940.
I was once told by a former Winchester custom shop employee that only one run of W21 frames were ever forged. Three forge boxes of Winchester parts were offered at a Devine auction around 1995. One was as forgedW21, one was started, including some engraving W21, and the other was W12 frames with one side engraved. I assumed they were the custom shop junk boxes, and I put in an absentee bid of $3 for each frame. They would have made good doorstops for Parker collectors. Someone must have thought them recoverable as they went for much more.
The W21 is a first rate gun but the quest for strength (3000 proof loads side by side with a Parker, and the Parker failed first) made a gun that was very difficult to engrave, checker, or blue.
Best, Austin
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Ross Berck
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 02:51 pm |
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I agree the 21 is overpriced...It lacks finesse.
On decoration Ive still never seen a Lefever,early Baker(pre folsom) or 94 Remington with bad engraving (im talking about birds here) The later LC Smith(post 1913),Ithaca,Fox got the worst engraving (coarse)and I wont even mention a high grade 21.
On sbt guns I think the LC Smith, early Flues(pre 1916 only) and early Baker (octagon barrel) are the most asthetically pleasing to look at (Im not talking about engraving here,the style of the gun is what I refer to)
My Parker SC seems to be the most seriously purpose built as a SBT gun with my Fox a close second. I like to shoot my late Baker Sterling the most, partially because I hate to be wearing out the Parker and Fox.
Thank goodness for the differences or none of us could afford the desireable guns.
Ross
Trap guns.....
Baker (Sterling,Elite early guns with octagon barrels)
Late Baker(Gary Ryther)
Ithaca Early Flues
The early Flues(bottom) much better engraved than the later Flues or Knick
Fox J
Parker (kittery)
LC Smith specialty (connecticut shotgun)
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Bill Frech
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 02:52 pm |
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| Well, Lon, I guess I'll be the one to disagree with the M21 never malfunctioning. I've owned 2 Model 21's. Both of them were 16 ga skeet guns. The first, I aquired new in 1959. It was a great gun, but would would misfire regularly with my reloads. Interestingly, I must admit, the gun never misfired with a factory shell. However, the reloads it wouldn't shoot would shoot in any of the other 5 16 ga. guns I owned at the time (including an Ithaca Flues, Model 12, Fox Sterlingworth, an old Savage single barrel, and an L.C. Smith. Winchester refused to even look at the gun because it fired factory ammo. The 2nd 21 I owned was a Custom ordered in 1962 (I traded the first one in on it). The single trigger doubled from the day I got it. It made 3 trips back to winchester and was never repaired. I finally made an appointment at Pachmayr's in L.A. and drove up there. They shot the gun while I was there and I left it with them. Long story short, they fixed it first time around. I have also had single triggers malfunction on Smiths and Parkers, but never on an Ithaca. You can say that Ithaca didn't design their own single trigger (the Ithaca- Miller debacle is a story in itself), but they were smart to offer it on their guns. I believe the Ithaca NID is one of the strongest, most reliable doubles ever offered by a U.S. manufacturer. Most aesthetically pleasing? Maybe not, but I've seen a few grade 5's and 7's I'd trade anything I own for. Bill
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Bill
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Lon E. Morris
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 04:10 pm |
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Bill,
I overstated the "never malfunction" and I am sure there are lots of exceptions. However in my experience, it is a truthful statement. If I were to book an expensive shotgun hunt, I would take the model 21 for relability "PERIOD".
Bill, other than the reliability issue, what was your opinion of how the 16 gauge 21 handled?
Sincerely, Lon
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Bill Frech
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 04:25 pm |
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| Lon - I liked the the way the M 21 handles. That's why I replaced the first one with another. If you've never handled an Ithaca NID, I think youwill find they are as close to a model 21 as you will find, at least in an American made double. Bill
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Francis Morin
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| Joined: | Sun May 11th, 2008 |
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Posted: Tue May 13th, 2008 09:53 pm |
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| Nice to see a gentleman on a Parker website equally erudite about what some gun writers refer to as "plumber's shotguns-pumps" John Moses Browning designed the Model 17 for Remington-believe it was only in 20 ga. and Ithaca bought the rights to it-renamed as the M37-in 1937. The Model 12 came from it's "Ol' Corn Sheller" predecessor- the Browning designed M1893-revised 1897 and wasn't discontinued until l957-so Winchester's sales of that hammer pumpgun must have held up- The Model 12 is somewhat akin to the great Colt 1873 Army SA revolver- (Patton's favorite) and the great Winchester 1873 lever rifle- and certainly to the Winchester M54 and later M70 BA rifles- almost indestructible-and the muzzle forward weight of a Model 12 made it a great choice for Tray and Skeet- I can't speak for the Single Traps- I never gave a Parker SC 34" barrel a real chance- could have traded it even for a Ithaca Knick 4E 32" barrel single or a 1948 M12 Pigeon Grade Trap with old milled rib-30" Imp. Mod. many years ago at Vandalia- I chose the M12-still have it, NFS by the way-figured it would also be good for doubles trap- as it turned out, I only shot registered 16 yard singles- hey- hindsight sure is always 20/20- and please, no more "emoticonings" from Hibernian soothsayers- enuf is enuf>>
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue May 13th, 2008 11:07 pm |
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Kittery still has that SC if anyone is interested 
. . . ooops, sorry about the emoticon 
ooops, there I go again, dang! (red face, big eyes, downturned mouth)
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Dave Noreen
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 12:11 am |
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Back in the day of the "real" Grand American Handicap, looking down the listing of competitor's guns and shells one found that Parker Bros. predominated, followed fairly closely by L.C. Smiths and usually Remingtons. Ithacas just weren't seen there, and the A.H. Fox Gun Co. hadn't come along yet. At the 1901 Grand American Handicap, there was even a Baltimore Arms Co. gun among the 22 men who went 25 straight, but nary an Ithaca! Both Ansley Fox and Harold Money shot Parker guns before the big W got them to schuck the Model 1897.
The pre-1915 high grade Ithaca doubles were beautifully engraved by some of the best in the business. I don't much care for the later McGraw designs. They always strike me as being poor wanna bes to Rudolf Kornbrath's work.
Ithaca obviously did something right when the game changed to clay targets. Their Flues and Knick SBTs won a lot of GAHs. From Charles Larson (1917) to Don Englebry (1945), Ithaca SBTs won the GAH 11 times.
I personaly hate bottom dumper pump guns. Evey time I see someone using one on a skeet field the gyrations they go thru trying to load the damn things are scary! As far as I'm concerned it was a grand day when Remington quit their bottom ejectors in favor of the Model 31.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 12:24 am |
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| Now that someone mentioned Kornbrath, I think I spied a Kornbrath gun in the pictures that were posted on this thread. Personally, I don't think those Baker guns are as neat as the early poster implied. By the way, Lon, your 32" 16 gauge Model 21 must be about the only one ever made. I have never heard of one before. Do you have a Cody letter on that gun to let us know who ordered such a great gun?
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Brad Hunt
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 12:42 am |
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I think what hurt Ithaca is the lines of their NID double--just clumsy. Still it is a solidly built gun and I wish I had my old NID 10 ga. magnum back. The Knick single was another matter and probably the best of the singles and sturdy. Engraving? frankly not that good until you got to the Flues 6E or the NID 7E or Dollar Grades.
The early European ethos of one shot per bird (If you miss your bird with one shot you don't get a second as the quarry gets to live another day) is quaintly romantic and calls back to the days of flintlock singles and appeals to me. Some of these old singles are stocked like modern field guns and would I think be fun in the dove field.
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Harry Sanders
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 01:58 am |
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Austin,
Thread has taken a different direction, but I have a pretty neat Meriden gun.
Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2008 02:02 am by Harry Sanders
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Timothy Sheldon
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 03:20 am |
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I have two Ithacas for sale on my ad in The Double Gun Journal, they are both in "like new" condition and they have not sold. They have not sold for quite some time as you might have painfully noticed. If I advertized a Parker Brothers in like new condition it would sell before Jim Kucaba gets his magazine out there in Arizona. Hi Jimbo. They are hard guns to figure out. Lou after while started cutting corners with the Ithacas and we are feeling it to this day.
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Lon E. Morris
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 03:36 am |
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Bill,
I bought the M-21 from Galazan's and they assured me I would not run across another 21 in this configuration. I have attached a picture for your review. It truly is an awsome handling shotgun! Sincerely, Lon
Attached Image (viewed 428 times):
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James T. Kucaba
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 03:49 pm |
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Trap guns.....
Baker (Sterling,Elite early guns with octagon barrels)
Ross ... I like unusual stuff and I'd like to see a few more photos of your trap guns with the octigon barrels. Would it be possible for you to post a few more photos, or send the photos to my email address ... JimKucaba@aol.com
THANKS ! ... Jim Kucaba ... AriZOOna Cactus Patch ...
Email: JimKucaba@aol.com
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"The price of critics NEVER changes ... They're ALWAYS a dime a dozen !"
"Those Who Matter Don't Judge Me ... Those Who Judge Me Don't Matter !"
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paul driscoll
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 08:38 pm |
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This is an early rade 5 Crass. It doesn't have the frame strength of a Parker. However early Ithaca engraving was some of the best.
 c vv%20%20%20%20%20%20[/img][img]../v[url= target=]Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2008 09:03 pm by paul driscoll
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paul driscoll
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 09:30 pm |
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| I must apologize for all of the space I tok up posting the Ithaca pictures. I tried several times to send the pics from photobucket but nothing worked. All of a sudden they all posted at once. Now I can not delete or edit them out. I have never had this problem before. I am now out of time and will address the problem when I get home. Sincerly Paul
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