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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 11:51 pm |
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I recently shipped a Parker 12 ga, GH, #1 frame out for repairs. I took it to a business that ships with UPS. I insured the gun for what I paid for it. UPS broke the buttstock off at the wrist. Luckily, when the gun arrived at the gunshop a UPS inspector was there when it was opened. He verified everything. Now, UPS is denying my claim because "FIREARM" wasn't marked on the outside of the carton. Any ideas to recourse? Another all original Parker bites the dust. Everyboby elses just got a little more valuable!!!
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:15 am |
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| I am getting ready to ship some gun things how did you ship your gun ? What I am asking is what type of precautions did you take ? I am in no means saying it was your fault but I am sorry to say many can learn. I would think if contents were damaged they should pay. Do we have to mark firearm on package if it were a 3500 or a 25.00 dollar stock ( just the stock) shipped.
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:17 am |
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Here is what UPS says you must do when shipping a firearm:
Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws.
* You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store® or any third-party retailer, or with international services.
Follow These Packing Requirements
* Your packages that contain handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS
* Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)
About Documentation and Labeling
* When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS, you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery
Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
* You can only ship your package that contains a firearm from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers
* When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk
* You can use UPS daily pickup accounts to ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On-Call PickupSM, and One-Time Pickup
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services
* See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for shipping firearms
So keep after them as they will try to deny your claim, it took nearly 7 months to settle my claim with them on a rare and historical fly rod they damaged severely. If it gets past 3 months you're going to win. Good Luck
____________________
"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
Fishnbanjos Place
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:35 am |
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| I see alot in that post about handguns but what about just a set of barrels or just a stock I guess they are parts. do you have to fallow all the same ? If Mike would of shipped the stock and didnt mark the package firearm would the UPS still fight it ?
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Erik Warren
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:41 am |
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| If you declared the package contained a firearm when you bought insurance (and can prove it), I think you should prevail. If not, you are probably SOL. I have never marked package to indicate a firearm, but when I sent a gun to myself in MI from Sarasota recently, the UPS (area shipping center) marked box as firearm and marked insured value as well. Must be new policy. If you declared what you were shipping and insuring and they did not check to see that box was properly marked you should get paid ... either by UPS or the "box & ship store". Whenever I have inquired about shipping a firearm via a "box and ship store", I have been directed to main UPS shipping center.
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:45 am |
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All of the carriers will fight regardless. I have shipped, and received, many items using them all and thus far have had damaged items on the receiving end 4 times (3 different carriers) and never items sent by me and packaged by me.
Each took a bit of time to get the claim taken care of and only one was never rectified since the person who shipped the item did not fulfill their end of the claim.
I think the best we can do is follow the guidelines of the carrier and if you are using one of their agents spend the extra little bit it takes to get them to package the item and at least this way they cannot use improperly packaged to deny the claim since the shipper agent is like having the carrier package it according to their own rules, it's cheap insurance.
____________________
"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
Fishnbanjos Place
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 01:02 am |
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| I will not be shipping a complete firearm just a set of barrels to one persn and a stock to another. Do I have to fallow the same regs. as a complete firearm . I know the ups guy will tell me one thing but if something happens He will deny he ever said anything.
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 01:15 am |
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| I'm not UPS, DLS, FedEX or the USPS, nor do I work for any of them, so I can tell you anything and it could be completely right, or completely wrong. What I'd do is package it in accordance to what the carrier outlines and if I don't feel comfortable in doing so then I'll have one of their agents do it for me but that's me.
____________________
"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
Fishnbanjos Place
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John Dallas
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 01:56 am |
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If UPS says you must label the package as "firearm" then it means they must somehow handle the package differently - a procedure which would have not broken your stock. Ask them to show the procedure that indicates how to handle "firearms" packages differently. If they can't produce the procedure, seems to me that their case is weakened.
Good luck
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 02:10 am |
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This just verfies my opinion of UPS. I would never ship a gun through them after hearing of the stories on this forum. There are just too many stories like yours out there where they have broken a gun in half. I can't imagine what they do to do that. You'd nearly have to whack the box with a splitting maul or put one end of it on a rock and run over it with the delivery truck. Mind boggling really. You could box that thing up well and toss it off the Empire State Bldg and it wouldn't break. How do they do it!?
Sante: Have you tried a 000-wt fly rod yet?? I have a Sage with a 2.2oz reel that has changed my fly fishing world forever.Last edited on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 02:12 am by Richard Flanders
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 05:16 am |
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| I took the gun to a "box and ship" store and gave them the address where the gun was to ship to. They assured me they could package it so it would be protected. I gave them a box I got from a gun store to pack it in. I gave them the address of the gun dealer in VA where I wanted it shipped to. To make a long story short the gun ended up in Gulf Breeze FL because the old label was still on the box and UPS scanned that. There was never any mention of special handling of a firearm. The protective packaging was just a bunch of old newspaper. The initial denial of the claim has been "kicked upstairs" for review. I should know Monday the results.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 11:16 am |
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UPS should be able to produce, immediately upon your request, written regs stating that such a package be marked "FIREARM" along with any other pertinent shipping instructions. If they can't, I think they have no case. Good Luck.
Sante, was it necessary that your antique flyrod package be marked "ANTIQUE FLY ROD" ??? I thought not. . .
So, what's the difference?? Damage is damage IMHO.
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RICHARD L ANDERSON
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:36 pm |
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Mike I'm very sorry to hear of your delima with UPS. I have shipped and received guns from them many time with no problems knock on wood. You have my upmost attention as I'm due to have a GHE delivered on Tuesday.
I would NEVER mark a package as a firearm, you might as well wright steal me on it. While I was at Cabelas we were directed by corporate not to mark a box as a firearm or to include the word gun or firarm in the address. If it was going to Joes Gun Shop we would just use Joe's. All this was to prevent theft.
I always pack my own guns for shipping. I'll buy the bubble wrap and tissue paper and do it myself. Then I know its done right.
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 01:17 pm |
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Dean,
No it wasn't marked as such but I packaged it and produced the proper paperwork FedEX required to insure it for the 5 figures it is valued at. The shipper balked at that point and took copies of everything I had then stated they could not be responsible because I had packaged it and would need to package it themselves in order to take responsibility and would need to unpackage and repackage it.
I then asked who would be responsible if they damaged it during the unpackaging stage? You should have seen the blank stare I got at that point.  I was told they couldn't be responsible for any damage done while unpackaging and repackaging so I then said why am I buying insurance then.
Another blank stare but to his credit the gent said if you have us package it without unpackaging it they would be responsible for any damage the item received only if the package they built showed signs of damage, i.e. if there were no visible damage and the item suffered damage then it would be my responsibility and I accepted those terms given I had every confidence in my packaging of the 3 3/4 oz rod.
It cost an additional $50 for their packaging which brought my shipping and insurance charges to just under $300 for guaranteed overnight delivery and the item now weighed 23 lbs!  Needless to say it arrived in perfect condition.
I have shipped rare and vintage rods, banjo's, guitars and other valuable items all over the world and as I said only 4 items have received damage and thus far none that I have personally packaged. I have come up with some unique ways to package items seeing how things are handled and I realize the carriers are under tremendous pressure to meet timeliness in shipping but there is no real care given items unless they are shipped via Registered Mail. I would not hesitate using this venue for a gunstock since it is one proven method of shipping and Registered Insured Mail gets treated very special. Last edited on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 07:15 pm by Sante Giuliani
____________________
"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
Fishnbanjos Place
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 01:32 pm |
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| Is there anything that would prevent us from bringing action against a shipper in small claims court? If they didn't show up to defend, I assume a judgement could be levied. I know small claims court limits wouldn't cover most of our shotguns, but I would like to know if it is one of our options if the shipper tries to avoid payment. By the way, I'm "Registered Mail" all the way, but don't have much control over what someone uses when they ship to me.
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 04:16 pm |
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The same problems plague all types of hobbyists, etc. who ship valuable packages and the problems get worse as the packages get larger and heavier. In addition to loving Parkers,I'm also afflicted with a passion for good guitars. They get broken in shipment regularly as well. The following link is to a thread on shipping damage from the Les Paul Forum. Unfortunately, the picture of the damaged guitar no longer comes up on the thread because it was hosted from photobucket and is no longer there. BUT, pay particular attention to Post #23 from "DanD" (posts are numbered on this Forum, on the far right of each post). He is a USPS employee and did a great job of explaining exactly how such horrific damage occurs. Of special interest is his description of APPS sorting machines and how to avoid them (they are usually the culprit). He also describes proper use of Priority Mail and Registered Mail to avoid these gun/guitar-eating machines. Post # 32 from "Danelectro" shows pics of the sorting machines and illustrates just how far your gun can fall onto the concrete. Post #28 makes a good point also. I think everyone who ships a gun should see and read this thread. Hope this helps someone.
Jim
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=131346&highlight=shipping+damage
Last edited on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 04:25 pm by Jim Williams
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Ken Hurst
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 04:46 pm |
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In the FWIW dept. ------ I ship approx. 100-150 firearms a year. Since I started using only USPS Reg. Mail, I haven't had any problems. This service does require that I wrap the package with kraft paper and use paper tape. In the last eight years, none of the packages I have shipped thru USPS Reg. Mail have arrived damaged or been lost. I no longer will accept a package sent via UPS or FedEx and have informed clients of this decision. None of client guns have ever arrived in the mail damaged. Lets see now, that's somewhere between a min. of 800 and 1200 firearms shipped without loss or damage --- tells you something.
Interestingly enough, a past client stated that I was top\ return shotgun Reg. mail. I informed him I only used this service and spoke about the rough service of UPS and FedEx. He stated that he was a UPS officer and fully understood why I wouldn't use their service. I indicated my surprise and he went on to tell me how their men are seen standing on parcels in order to reach a hole to cram another package into. He stated that the co. felt the loss to damage wasn't as great as the extra packages they were able to ship due to crushing as many packages as possible into a transit truck.
As I said , FWIW ---- Ken
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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 05:21 pm |
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Regarding the questions about informing the carrier that you are shipping a firearm.....if there is a reciever in the package then you are shipping a firearm even if the barrel stock and all working parts are not present. If you are shipping stocks barrels etc they are not firearms.
In addition I second Ken's recommendation of USPS. They just plain work.
Jeff
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Tom Carter
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 05:56 pm |
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Mike, The ATF in 27 CFR 478.31 (b) states " No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice be placed on the outside of any packeage, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm". Other references which may help are U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e). I have not read the other references so I don't know what they say.
Putting any reference on the outside of a package that there is a firearm inside is a clear violation of the CFR.
I hope this may help you. UPS cannot require you to violate Federal Regulations. I would talk to an attorney if you need legal help. Cheers, Tom
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 06:19 pm |
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I stopped using UPS when I went to a UPS/MailBox Etc. and was told that they could not ship firearms. I now use the USPS exclusively and I have never had a problem (and they are less expensive than UPS.)
My advice is keep on them and be relentless - you should prevail but you will have to be a PITA to keep it moving.
Good luck.
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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