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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 10:32 pm |
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When I was in the BMWCCA we had a guy who would help coach members if they had tyrouble getting a proper value for any older BMW's that got bent. It worked like a charm as you got coached on what to say and how to say it. If you said all the right magic words the insurance companies just got out the checkbook and stopped arguing.
Maybe we can create a little reference book on how to handle this kind of thing and place it in an FAQ for members.
Jeff
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Earle E BuBar
Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 09:12 am |
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We too ship alot of guns and have used all of the above and I have to agree with Keith ; USPS via their Register Mail gives you a break on insurance costs and that form of mail is handled differently than any other . I have had much better luck than with any other system however I have not had flawless performance from them either . I recently shiped a Browning 1 of 2000 Comm. A5 [1971 vintage] NEW in the box to a advanced collector in GA. He has had so much trouble with UPS [had a big lawsuit against them last year] that he asked me to ship the gun in the original makers case and ship the barrel separately . I shiped them Registered Mail with the correct amount of insurance. They must have throw the gun thru the air at some point as they have bruised the case enough to break the gun loose in the fitted case and have it slam forward enough to SPLIT the forearm on an unfired gun................ you can imagine how upset he is. Anyway they are draggin their feet on this saying that the gun wasnt boxed correctly . So in all fairness I dont think there is anyway to box one when someone that hates his job at 1 am in the morning decides to start throwing them into a pile!
I will keep you updated on the final results on this claim.
Last edited on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 09:20 am by Earle E BuBar
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Classic Restorations Old world craftsmanship on Fine American Doubles and Leverguns[207 448 2226]
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Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 10:23 am |
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Earle, I may have asked you before. . . did you know Frank and Leslie Young? Frank died about a year or two ago. He and Leslie bought a 40 acre piece on the Mattawaumkeg and built a camp out there so they could shoot without bothering anybody, or be bothered by others.
Dean
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 10:26 am |
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I have received the final word from UPS - "CLAIM VOIDED". Because their agent wasn't authorized to ship firearms. UPS suggests I take it up with the company I took the gun to and try and get satisfaction from them. So, unless someone has the name of the UPS exec who can overturn that decision I'm going to file in Small Claims court. Here's what the UPS website says about shipping firearms: "Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store® or any third-party retailer, or with international services". For a complete description go to http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html. I hope no one who reads this post is sending or receiving firearms that are not in compliance with with their regulations. Do any of you legal types see any loopho;es?
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 12:23 pm |
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| When I worked at a high end gun store, we used our neighbor across the street, a Mail Boxes franchise, to ship guns of all values. We were self insured. No fuss, no muss.
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David Hamilton
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 04:38 pm |
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| There are rats in the the UPS woodwork!!! David
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Don Kaas
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 11th, 2005 |
| Location: | Palm,PA |
| Posts: | 2720 |
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Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 12:53 pm |
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| I agree with Murphy. I have all my guns insured with a dedicated policy. I'd much rather deal with Chubb than deal with either UPS or USPS. I ship exclusively and all too frequently with the latter.
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Trigg Davis
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 08:41 pm |
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Mike,
These are some thoughts for you from one of the legal types if you do take this to small claims court. Let me preface my comments by saying this is outside my usual area of practice. Also free advice is, as they say, often worth just what you paid of it. With those disclaimers here are some ideas for you.
It is interesting that UPS is apparently saying they won't cover this because they do not accept guns at locations like the UPS stores, though they accept them elsewhere. This may be the policy, but the facts as I understand it, are that the store did in fact accept the gun and arrange to ship it with full knowledge it was a gun.
If UPS policy was violated, it appears to have been violated by UPS own agent. A court may be sympathetic to the concept that UPS is bound by the acts of its agent and that UPS primary problem should be with there own agent not with you. You can at least argue this position.
Even if the store did not follow the correct policy, it seems reasonable for you to take the position that the UPS store certainly appeared to have the authority to accept and ship UPS packages. The store, which appears to be the agent for UPS, did not tell you otherwise and in fact accepted and shipped your gun. There are times when courts hold a principal such as UPS liable for actions of agents who lacked authority because it reasonably appeared to the customer (you) that the agent (UPS Store) had authority.
I can't assure you this will work, but it is a reasonable approach that might appeal to a small claim courts. It is essentially what many call a fair or equitable result that gets around a technical defense. The concept would be that it is not be fair to allow a defense based on a violation of a policy by the principals own agent; particularly when it would appear to the public that this agent would have authority to accept shipments.
Again as a matter of fairness it sort of comes down to the concept that the agent should have know about and informed you of the policy, and if UPS own agent failed to do so UPS should be stuck. If UPS claims that the store was not technically an agent or that the agent exceeded its authority then the concept is that UPS chose the agent and caused them to appear to have authority with no fair warning to you and UPS should still be stuck.
Frankly law is usually not black and white, there are a lot of gray areas. This approach may or may not work but it involves concepts with which a judge should be familiar and might help you make a presentation in small claims court.
In my state of Alaska small claims is pretty informal and the approach would I expect make sense if one stayed in small claims. One potential danger for you is that there may be a procedure in your state for UPS to remove the case from small claims and this might complicate matters. Given the nature of the transportation industry there may well be federal tariff or similar regulations that override state law and small claims as well. If this proves to be the case things may get much more complicated. Checking with a lawyer in your state who works in the transportation area about the viability of using small claims would be wise. It is not an area in which I have had direct involvement so my knowledge is pretty limited.
You were seeking some help so I tried to give some guidance; I hope it works out for you.
Trigg
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Earle E BuBar
Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 07:48 am |
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Dean,
I did not ever get to meet them. Although I am only about 25 miles from there as the old crow flys! Hope all is well down that way. We are getting ready for fall here already. I have been guiding fisherman 3-4 days a week to get outta the gunshop. Have moose and bear hunters coming in Sept. And looking forward to a great grouse season as have been seeing fair numbers of birds with young uns all summer in the woods. Have a young setter that needs staunchin up a little better and all should go fine!
E
____________________
Classic Restorations Old world craftsmanship on Fine American Doubles and Leverguns[207 448 2226]
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Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2007 03:07 am |
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Thanks for the reply Earle. Frank and Leslie lived in Bangor but spent as much time as they possibly could out at their camp. They had all kinds of wildlife on their place. It had been cut off about seven or eight years before they bought it. They regularly saw everything from moose, bear and deer to grouse and woodcock. Their land was about 1/5 flat and boggy close to the river and they told me they had a lot of woodcock there.
The hunting seasons will be upon us before we're really ready for them (as usual) so I'm beginning to make preparations now.
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 12:07 pm |
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| I'm going to present my case in small claims court this morning. I will have the broken stock with me to emphasize the point. I'll let you know how it comes down.
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 12:30 pm |
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| Are you summoning UPS or the agent to court? I would have chosen the agent myself because he would be more likely to show up. My first question for this guy once he is on the stand would be "Sir, are you covered by an insurance policy that would cover this loss." I believe he would have to lie in court to state that he had no such coverage. I think I mentioned earlier that, in my county, it used to be that the judge in small claims court frowned on legal representation. I don't know how it would be today. Last edited on Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 12:31 pm by Bill Murphy
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 03:53 pm |
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Had my day in court and here's how it's shaking out. I sued the company I shipped with. They showed up with an attorney. The Judge admitted she knew nothing about guns. We both gave our side of the story. We have a new court date for October 3. The judge had me sue UPS at no additional cost. The Judge says I have two arguments; 1)They were negligent in their packaging. 2) UPS is responsible for the damage. The judge suggested I bring in an expert to testify as to the value of the gun and answer her questions. Who is the greatest, most renowned authority on Parker Guns? BTW - I paid $1000 for the gun. I insured it for $1000. Their attorney claimed he had several shotguns and had never seen a gun worth that much money. Win or lose those poor folks are going to end up spending more on that idiot than had they paid me the grand!
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Eric Eis
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 05:27 pm |
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Mike,
Where are you located, maybe one of the "known Parker Collectors" could help you out. Or go Conn. Shotgun and Puglisi's site and print out all of thier Parkers for sale, that should give that attorney an eye openning experiece....Eric
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 07:32 pm |
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| I live near Cincinnati
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