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Tom Bria
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 28th, 2005 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 526 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 12:31 am |
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Two observations:
If you took the gun to a UPS pack and ship, and if they knew it was a firearm, and if THEY failed to mark the package in accordance with whatever looney regulations UPS says they must follow, then it would seem that you have recourse against both the pack and ship and against UPS because the pack and ship was acting as agent for UPS. You paid them to PACK and SHIP, and they failed to execute their responsibilities properly.
If the shotgun is pre-1898, it may not even be a firearm under federal shipping or transfer regulations.
Sue 'em all.
Bill: Small claims limit in CA is $7500. Unfortunately, that does cover most of my guns.Last edited on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 12:33 am by Tom Bria
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 01:28 am |
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I and many others have been using the U S Post Office for shipping guns. I ship them insured for full value. Have had no problems.
If your claim is denied by UPS, I would not hesitate to bring an action in small claims court. While the limit was often $5000, in many states its now up to $10000 or $15,000.
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Bruce Day
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Kevin McCormack
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 12:57 pm |
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| Here's how a carton containing a pristine Runge-engraved M 11-48 .410 2-bbl. set arrived at my FFL holder's house via FEDEX. According to the tracking log, the gun went from the place of purchase in MD up into PA, then back down to a receiving station near the outskirts of Baltimore, then back up to PA, then finally to my FFL holder in northern VA. Miraculously, there was no damage to the gun at all. Still can't figure out why but this picture shows why I, like Ken Hurst, NEVER use any service except USPS Registered Mail. Insurance up to #35K, cradle-to-grave signature tracking, and the PO has never once asked me what the object is. KBM Attached Image (viewed 345 times):
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 12:58 pm |
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| Regarding small claims court, a fellow PGCA guy recommended that avenue when having disputes with car dealers over disputed warranty coverage and other service disputes. In his experience, most car dealers don't like to send employees or representatives to defend and like judgements even less. Of course, as we know, big business can outwait and out legal the best of us. I have not used this avenue of recourse, but have been tempted.
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Vincent Holmes
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 03:06 pm |
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In the past 30 days I also purchased a "V Grade" that was shipped via UPS and looked like the Truck ran in over several times on the way !
I was told by the UPS Claims Agent that came out ("Off the Record") In the future avoid shipping anything un-replaceable from May - Sept. & Nov.-Dec. as they have large number of "Students" on staff during those times and package damage is 4-5X Normal.
I am now waiting to see If and When I will get a check?
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John Hickerson
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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If it means anything DelGrego ships their things USPS. When I talked to them that also how they had me ship my Parkers to them.
Hick
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HICK
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Brent Thompson
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | New York USA |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 03:32 pm |
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Uppa P Ess broke a stock a few years ago. No gun, just wood.
The self-insurance I now use on any decent gun costs about $25-45 extra dollars. I send an empty heavy duty plastic case with eggcrate foam, in a cardboard box, to the seller. It's a PITA but I don't trust any of the shippers.
Last edited on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 03:34 pm by Brent Thompson
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 5872 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 04:50 pm |
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| This is not going to go over big with readers, but I cut a piece (or pieces) of thin plywood to put into one side (or both sides) of the box before I insert the gun so that the shippers can stand on the box if they wish and it still won't bend or break like they seem to want it to do to it. It also allows my box to be used as a step or bridge if they choose to use it as such. Truthfully, that is what I do. It doesn't have to go all the way to the end, but it should cover the middle part of the package. Takes a little bit of the worry out of shipping, even when using USPS Registered and Insured which Larry Del Grego Sr. taught me when I was a pup.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 07:03 pm |
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| And I thought I knew something about how to ship a gun. I've not ever had a problem and have always used USPS. I like Bill's method a lot. I'm soon to ship a nice 20ga Repro off and will do just as Bill suggests. I've always considered that but have never actually done it. After seeing some of these pics and the stories herein, I will on this one for sure. Dave Miles sent me a ghe 12 recently that was very well packed wrapped in thin foam inside a taped shut thick foam lined plastic gun case, gun broken down into 2 pcs inside, and the whole case inside a cardboard box. He used USPS. I guess UPS or Fedex could still mangle that one but it was pretty good. I would also recommend to anyone shipping a repro to wrap the receiver very well in thin bubble wrap to prevent the colors from coming off from rubbing on the wool felt in shipping; that happened to one I received. They didn't stablilze or wrap the gun inside the trunk case at all... bad idea. Really bad idea actually.
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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 07:16 pm |
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Regarding the PO, I have been asked about the contents and when I answered "gun" I never even got a second look. I was also never asked if the out of state recipient was an FFL, though I had the info in my pocket in case I was asked for it.
This includes PO's in Poolesville, a rural small town and Dunn Loring Va. which is a built up urban commerical/residential area.
IMO just "go postal".
Jeff
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 07:21 pm |
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| I guess I use 3/8 inch plywood, have only used it on one side of the box, but cut it to be the full width and almost the full length of the box. I have no idea what the guy on the other end thinks of it. I have never asked, but I have never had a complaint. It couldn't cost me much in extra weight. Not long ago, FEI mailed me an oak and leather case for one of my eight gauges and the box had a serious hole through the top. The case had a corresponding gouge and I showed it to my postmaster when inspection time came with the "claim". He said "Yup, it looks like it's broke" and signed off on the damage claim. I had a check in the mail pretty quickly. No questions. USPS paid FEI's estimate to make a new lid for the case, ignored my mention of shipping charges. Fair enough. About forty years ago, a dealer in NC sent me a six gauge W&C Scott by USPS that was insured for $400 as I remember. They stood on the box and it buckled in the middle and broke the stock. Lefever wrote me an estimate to restock the gun for about $1200. USPS paid the $400 so quick I couldn't believe it happened so fast. Same deal, the postmaster looked at the gun and admitted that it was broken. End of story.
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 08:47 pm |
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| Well, I spoke to the shipping agent today and she says UPS is denying the claim. UPS claims to have a policy that only their stores can ship guns. The agent I used states that they weren't aware of the policy. She claims UPS says it's posted on their website. So, for you legal types out there, who's at fault?
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Sante Giuliani
BBS Member
| Joined: | Wed Jul 27th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maine USA |
| Posts: | 59 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 10:27 pm |
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| My unofficial legal answer (I'm not a legal person) would be both, UPS for not making it clear to their shipping community and the shipping agency themselves for not being familiar with UPS rules. The only one here who would not be at fault would be you since you were purchasing a service. My humble opinion of course.
____________________
"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 12:32 am |
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| Take the contract maggot to small claims court. See how long he sticks with UPS if UPS doesn't come clean with a payoff. He knows that UPS is responsible and so do you.
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Dean Romig
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 01:03 am |
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I believe Tom Carter's post says it all. The ATF proscribes regulations pertaining to the shipment of firearms and the labeling of such. It would appear that UPS is in violation and should be investigated by ATF. I wonder how many counts of violations of ATF regulations UPS could be found guilty of? 
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 01:21 am |
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| Well boys I dont think I will sleep the next couple days , I just sent my barrels to Kirk M. today UPS might have a few more dents to remove than I started with ,we will see how well I pack I guess.
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Destry Hoffard
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| Location: | Michigan USA |
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 02:10 am |
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If you're shipping just barrels, slip them down in a piece of PVC pipe before you put them in the box. Would take a lot to bend that stuff enough to damage the barrels.
Destry
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 02:16 am |
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Well I am a plumber and that is just what I did sch 40 3" with rubber end caps.I still been saving paper for ya Destry. Might need a dump truck 
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 02:23 am |
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| I use PVC too. Cemented a cap on one end and a threaded coupling on the other end with a threaded cap, stuff bubble wrap in the capped end, wrap barrels in small bubble wrap sheet so it is a snug fit to push the barrels into the tube, more stuffing on top, screw the cap in and pack the whole thing in a box. Oscar wasn't too fond of my method but Dale hasn't complained yet. Oscar told me it invites condensation, but, after all, how long will the barrels sit in there? BTW, attach some kind of cord to the lug or hook to aid in pulling the barrels out of the tube.
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 03:04 am |
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Dean,
Even though it probably isn't an issue anyway, it seems like you could drill a few small holes in the end caps to allow the contents to breathe and thus eliminate condensation problems. I've shipped barrels like you do before and never gave condensation a thought, but if some air could circulate it should prevent the condensation from forming. I wonder if Oscar ever saw it happen, or was just concerned "in theory"? What a guy...wish he was still with us.
Jim
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