Cowboy BP 8 & 10 loads

[Dutch Dalton]

Milton,

The Rem's are about .945 on the ring. After that's milled and slipped off, 'tis down to .917 + -, which chambers in the 1883 gun. I won't cross my own line in the sand by using smokeless in one of these old dogs (a compatriot, familiar with BP, loaded smokeless one night and double charged a round and blew up a perfectly good buffalo gun. Lived (real lucky) to tell about it!!!).
3 oz. zinc?!? Sounds like your speaking of the klinker guns. Found them on line, still made. A single barrel pedestal gun, with shield, fired with a lanyard. I'll stick to shoulder guns.

Thanks for the come back.
Best,
DD

[Hammer Fan]

Good thread Ron. I've been experimenting with my new 10 ga as well lately. It's a #3 frame D grade hammer gun with .793 bores, choked full and full. I turned out some brass, thin walled 2 7/8" hulls at work, and have been working up some black powder loads for waterfowl. My best loads are 4 1/2 drams of FFFg Goex with 1 1/2 oz of buffered bismuth, in sizes #1 and #4. I use 9 ga. card and felt wads. For #4 shot I load one 1/8" hard card wad, one 3/8" felt wad, and one 1/4" greased felt wad with a overshot card between the greased wad and shot. The over shot card is glued on with Duco cement. With #1 shot I have to replace the one 3/8" felt wad with a 1/4" felt wad to get everything to fit.

With this configuration my right barrel patterns 78% and the left 76% at 40 yards. After reading about Sherman Bell's testing with blackpowder loads I'm taking an educated guess that my velocity is around 1250-1300 fps with these loads. Switching to Swiss instead of Goex powder would increase my velocity and pressure, but may diminish my patterns, more testing is necessary.

Keep experimenting with powder, shot, and wad configurations, one of them with be the "magic" one. Sometimes it seems light loads can be a little more finicky for some reason. It probably has to do with how the added card wads react with the shot column. Best of luck to you.

[Milton Starr]

I just mentioned the 3 oz load because I heard Mr Charlie say he shot them in his parker lifter plus I think that's what the sp8 wax was designed for. Also I found a picture of a greener 8 ga I think its similar to the one tom armburst has. Your lucky you got a 8 ga. I can't seem to find one in my price range . Though I have thought about loading for my 10 ga though I can't find the shot I want.

[StubTwist]

Originally Posted by Forrest Grilley

Switching to Swiss instead of Goex powder would increase my velocity and pressure, but may diminish my patterns, more testing is necessary.

If all things being equal loading up 4 drams of BP, 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 10 gauge shell, does anyone know how much increase in pressure using Swiss powder compared to Goex?

I use Goex FFg for 10 and 12 gauges. Heard good things about Swiss but the lack of data information of how much change of pressure keeps me from loading them in my old guns.

[Hammer Fan]

Originally Posted by Frank Cronin

If all things being equal loading up 4 drams of BP, 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 10 gauge shell, does anyone know how much increase in pressure using Swiss powder compared to Goex?

I use Goex FFg for 10 and 12 gauges. Heard good things about Swiss but the lack of data information of how much change of pressure keeps me from loading them in my old guns.

I have a Ferguson breech loading flintlock rifle that I have experimented with Swiss powder. At 100 yards switching from 3F Goex to 3F Swiss will raise the point of impact of the ball by 9 inches. I need to borrow a chronograph to find out what the actual change in velocity is, but just going by trajectory, it is significant. The Ferguson has a small powder chamber (about 60 grains) so pressure concerns are not really a factor in this rifle. I am somewhat hesitant to throw 4 1/2 drams into my 10 ga. without knowing what the exact difference in PSI is.

I have been told several times that sporting powders in the late 19th century were "hotter" than the standard Goex we have today. Swiss powder is supposedly closer to the old Curtis and Harvey sporting powders, but without knowing for sure about pressures I am somewhat hesitant to try it. The Goex performs so well in my gun I don't know if it's worth the trouble (and expense) to play around with Swiss in this specific application. Does anyone know of someone who will pressure test 10 ga. 2 7/8" brass hulled, blackpowder loads using 9 ga wads?

[Dutch Dalton]

Thanks all for the reviews,

Had a 4 paragraph response, stopped for coffee and poof, Forum dropped me.

Anyway, Milton, the 8 was a bit more than the $110 in '83. More like, near 5 times the cost of the 10. I've tried to forewarn the heirs. What's a 'milk gun'?

Forrest, your 4 1/2 drams beats my mentor by a whole dram (his are running 1200 FPS) Add Swiss, oh my! Tried Swiss in my 32/20 pistols and I noticed the difference over Goex (a mere 16 grs. by vol.) Greater style points are had by SASS shooters using brass (don't step on the brass as you traverse the stage!).

I'll soon keep the Parkers for something more of their heritage, say trap (no I don't throw them down on the deck in the middle of a timed SASS stage!) Thanks for the thoughts about patterns. Will be important as I invest more in BP trap at our SASS nationals in Phoenix.

Thanks all for the names of those who came before me. More to study, always more to learn.
Best,
Dutch

[StubTwist]

Originally Posted by Forrest Grilley

I have a Ferguson breech loading flintlock rifle that I have experimented with Swiss powder. At 100 yards switching from 3F Goex to 3F Swiss will raise the point of impact of the ball by 9 inches. I need to borrow a chronograph to find out what the actual change in velocity is, but just going by trajectory, it is significant.

9" change in point of impact is pretty significant I'd say too! I'd be curious how much increase in velocity you are getting with Swiss compared to Goex.

I did some searching to no avail regarding pressures but I did find this. To give credit where credit is due, I found it here http://blackpowderblog.blogspot.com/

One thing to bear in mind is that most folks believe that current-day blackpowder, Goex in particular, is significantly weaker than mass-produced blackpowder of the 18th and 19th centuries. this article notes 1250 fps as the velocity of a minie ball fired from a Civil War musket imported from England. If you were to use an equivalent charge of Goex 2F to propel the minie ball, velocity would likely be <1000 fps. The difference in powder strength is attributed to the charcoal used in the manufacture of the powder. Even today, no one disputes that Swiss powder, which is constructed of a different charcoal from Goex, produces higher velocities (and more recoil) on a weight-to-weight basis than Goex. So ... it would seem that there is some basis for the argument that blackpowder was originally stronger than what we have today. but I digress ....

[Hammer Fan]

Originally Posted by Frank Cronin

9" change in point of impact is pretty significant I'd say too! I'd be curious how much increase in velocity you are getting with Swiss compared to Goex.

I did some searching to no avail regarding pressures but I did find this. To give credit where credit is due, I found it here http://blackpowderblog.blogspot.com/

One thing to bear in mind is that most folks believe that current-day blackpowder, Goex in particular, is significantly weaker than mass-produced blackpowder of the 18th and 19th centuries. this article notes 1250 fps as the velocity of a minie ball fired from a Civil War musket imported from England. If you were to use an equivalent charge of Goex 2F to propel the minie ball, velocity would likely be <1000 fps. The difference in powder strength is attributed to the charcoal used in the manufacture of the powder. Even today, no one disputes that Swiss powder, which is constructed of a different charcoal from Goex, produces higher velocities (and more recoil) on a weight-to-weight basis than Goex. So ... it would seem that there is some basis for the argument that blackpowder was originally stronger than what we have today. but I digress ....

Outstanding find, thank you! That goes right along with what I have been led to believe as well. After learning about the properties of the antique sporting powders, I am much less apprehensive of using the so called "fast" burning 3F Goex. I need to do more experimenting/learning before I take the leap to heavy loads of 3F Swiss, but the results may put my modern 3" duck loads to shame. Which the Goex loads I am already experimenting with are pretty close to doing as it is. My old fashioned blackpowder and card wad 10 ga loads already pattern tighter and more uniformly than any of the bismuth loads I have been able to load up in my Ruger Red Label.