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Robert Rzepiela
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 01:19 am |
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Not sure how the USPS works w/r insurance. I ship with UPS and buy extra insurance up the a value of gun replacement. If this was UPS and I had bought the insurance, I would expect for them to send me a check for the insured amount and keep the broken gun if they want to.
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Derrick Stewart
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 02:12 am |
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Well I hope the shipper insured the gun for what it's worth, if not all youll get is a couple hundred bucks at the most. When you file a claim you will need to provide proof of it's value.
Russ, you also need to make sure you keep the box the gun was shipped in so the rep can look at it. They are notorious for saying the package had insufficent packaging and they will denie the claim. Just fair warning.
I work for an electric motor manfacture and we also manfacture bench grinders and cast iron pedstal bases. I witnesses one of our employee's hang a pallet of cast iron pedestal bases on a cross beam one time and the whole pallet fell from 10 feet onto the concrete floor and none of the 80 lb bases were damanged but I have seen UPS bring them back to us in pieces. It got so bad that UPS came to me and asked that we no longer ship these cast iron bases due to the wear and tear on their conveyor belting. So with UPS shipper beware...
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 10:31 am |
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| You will be hard pressed to get any shipper to pay for the damage. They will tell you it was improperly packaged. Especially if there's no damage to the box. It's wise to have your own firearms insurance, that will cover everyting. Anything I ship through UPS, I insure for $1000.00 to get it off the main conveyor line. Then I depend on my insurance for any damage thay may happen. Which so far hasn't been required.
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RICHARD L ANDERSON
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 12:15 pm |
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Russ by chance did you get this off Gunbroker?
This is the EXACT reason I'll drive my CHE 20 to PA and hand deliver to Russ Bickel for the work I want done. It won't cost any more to drive it than ship it and I KNOW it will get there in one piece.
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 12:24 pm |
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Dave Miles wrote: It's wise to have your own firearms insurance, that will cover everyting.
Dave,
I would be surprised if "firearms insurance" would cover this situation since it would be difficult to establish if the damage happened before ownership passed to the insured. (At least that's what I would argue if I were representing the insurance company).
Absent any provisions for the buyer to pay for the insurance, I believe the seller has the responsibility for insuring the gun and, assuming the seller provided the typical three-day inspection period, I would take a lot of picures of the gun, packing material and box then ship it back to him (IN A HARD SIDED GUN CASE) and request the immediate return of the purchase price.
Jay
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Vincent Holmes
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 12:38 pm |
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Russ,
I had a similar experience about two years ago with a gun shipped UPS and stock was cracked in the same place. After several Months of haggling with UPS they did pay the claim however, the seller was the party purchased the insurance therefore they sent the payment to him. The seller ended up with double his selling price and I ended up with broken gun and seller that just disappeared!
I would highly recommend that you return the Gun to the seller get your money and let them resolve with UPS.
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 12:40 pm |
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Jay Gardner wrote: Dave Miles wrote: It's wise to have your own firearms insurance, that will cover everyting.
Dave,
I would be surprised if "firearms insurance" would cover this situation since it would be difficult to establish if the damage happened before ownership passed to the insured. (At least that's what I would argue if I were representing the insurance company).
Absent any provisions for the buyer to pay for the insurance, I believe the seller has the responsibility for insuring the gun and, assuming the seller provided the typical three-day inspection period, I would take a lot of picures of the gun, packing material and box then ship it back to him (IN A HARD SIDED GUN CASE) and request the immediate return of the purchase price.
Jay
Jay,
I have the Chubb Insurance, that was recommended to me, by people on this board. I was told by the agent, my guns are insured during shipping, no questions asked. But, I've never had to use it, so who really knows?
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Pete Lester
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 12:54 pm |
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| I picked up a gun yesterday from a stock maker/fixer/bender and I recalled him showing me a Merkel 410 he was fixing with a broken toe. The gun had been damaged in shipment, shipper was UPS. The gun was inside a foam lined plastic hard case which was bubble wrapped and inside a card board box. It had been dropped or hit hard enough to break the hard case and the toe of the stock. One has to wonder, accident or malicious.
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Russ Jackson
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 01:24 pm |
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Gentlemen; Thank you all for your comments and thoughts, I have been away so I couldn't answer to the replys from everyone, I really don't know how this all will end up, one thing for sure we all can agree, it is a shame when these things happen and every experience is a learning one ! I just wanted to post this ,so everyone can see that these things do go wrong from time to time, I have been very fortunate up to this point, most of my Parkers have come through the mail, UPS , Fed -Ex, etc. ,this is the first casualty, and hopefully the last !!
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 01:52 pm |
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Dave Miles wrote: Jay Gardner wrote: Dave Miles wrote: It's wise to have your own firearms insurance, that will cover everyting.
Dave,
I would be surprised if "firearms insurance" would cover this situation since it would be difficult to establish if the damage happened before ownership passed to the insured. (At least that's what I would argue if I were representing the insurance company).
Absent any provisions for the buyer to pay for the insurance, I believe the seller has the responsibility for insuring the gun and, assuming the seller provided the typical three-day inspection period, I would take a lot of picures of the gun, packing material and box then ship it back to him (IN A HARD SIDED GUN CASE) and request the immediate return of the purchase price.
Jay
Jay,
I have the Chubb Insurance, that was recommended to me, by people on this board. I was told by the agent, my guns are insured during shipping, no questions asked. But, I've never had to use it, so who really knows?
When YOU shipped guns or when guns were shipped to you as part of the sales process? Very important distinctions, legally. The real issue is when title to the gun passes to the buyer. Better check with your Chubb agent. Share this story with him (leaving out no details) and ask if you would be covered. I'll bet you lunch you would be SOL.
____________________
Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 01:54 pm |
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Russ,
What were the terms of the seller's offer in terms of shipping and/or insurance? When you sent the seller your check did you include payment for shipping AND insurance?
Jay
____________________
Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 03:25 pm |
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Jay Gardner wrote: Russ,
What were the terms of the seller's offer in terms of shipping and/or insurance? When you sent the seller your check did you include payment for shipping AND insurance?
Jay
Just like Vince said, the buyer pays the insurance. But it's the seller who gets it, and it's in his name. The buyer recieves the gun, it's busted. You paid the insurance, so you send the gun back for a refund. To be paid by the seller. He than has to collect on the insurance. You can have anything you want on paper, doesn't mean it will fly. Bottom line: you ship a gun, you take your chances.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 03:29 pm |
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| It doesn't matter. It belongs to the seller until it is accepted by the buyer......after the inspection period. Whether the seller honors the money back provision is always up in the air.
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed May 6th, 2009 07:53 pm |
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Dave Miles wrote: Jay Gardner wrote: Russ,
What were the terms of the seller's offer in terms of shipping and/or insurance? When you sent the seller your check did you include payment for shipping AND insurance?
Jay
Just like Vince said, the buyer pays the insurance. But it's the seller who gets it, and it's in his name. The buyer recieves the gun, it's busted. You paid the insurance, so you send the gun back for a refund. To be paid by the seller. He than has to collect on the insurance. You can have anything you want on paper, doesn't mean it will fly. Bottom line: you ship a gun, you take your chances.
It does not really matter what happened in Vince's situation, the only facts that are relevant are the ones in this situation. I was just asking for clarification.
Chances are that the solution will work out as it should for both parties.
Not sure how the USPS insurance policy is written but the interesting question is as a seller would you want 1.) the difference between the value before the damage and the value after the damage; or 2.) would you want the full value of the gun and then turn the gun over to the insurance company? To me at one level the answer is simple - give me a check and I'll give you the gun. On the other hand, I would hate to see an otherwise splended old 20 ga Parker destroyed simply because of a broken wrist, which can probably be easily and inexpensivly repaired.
What would you do?
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Hugh Rather
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 12:48 am |
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| One thing that has not been pointed out is that in the case of a transfer involving post '98 guns is if funds are not returned on a returned gun the authorities at BATFE would be interested in these stories.Most gun dealers I know tell me they seldom if ever have funding shenanigans due to this.
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John 3:16
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 02:31 am |
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Can you quote federal law on that return policy? That would be some interesting information to have.
Destry
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The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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RICHARD L ANDERSON
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 10:57 am |
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I wouldn't think there would be much of a problem in a situation like this when going through a dealer. The problem of returning the gun or collecting the insurance when dealing with an individual is the key. A licensed dealer wouldn't put his FFL in jeopardy over something like this.
I would return the gun to the seller and get my money back using the inspection period. In an online auction I won't even bid on a gun that has no return policy.
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Mike Franzen
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 01:47 pm |
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I had a similar situation about 2 years ago with UPS. Search my old posts. They will deny your claim because they have a policy against shipping firearms! I took them to court and finally prevailed after about a year.
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Russ Jackson
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 02:07 pm |
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Good Morning Gentlemen; Just to catch up on my post, First let me say ,the seller and I have a very open line of communications and things are going along well ,I don't expect any problems ,at this time I am waiting for an insurance agent to come take a look at the damage. My biggest dissapointment is a very nice 20 Gauge Parker has been so damaged !Again until this matter is resolved, really can't say too much about it. When this matter is resolved, I will post how UPS handled the situation and all that I have learn about what happens when things go wrong. Thank you all for your thoughts, concerns and suggestions ! Russ
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Thu May 7th, 2009 02:57 pm |
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Mike Franzen wrote: They will deny your claim because they have a policy against shipping firearms!
Did they every provide you with a copy of that policy or a citing reference to it? I'll surely like to look that one up and have it handy IF needed in the future.
Thanks,
Jay
____________________
Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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