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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2006 11:42 pm |
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| Maybe I was being a little flippant in my last post, because I realized that in a past thread, the gun was discussed by some researchers who had actually seen, handled, and researched the gun, and pictures were posted. On rereading this thread, I see that the posts indicating first hand knowledge of the gun were not included here. I can't say I recall where the thread including those posts is located. However, it made the condition, originality, and potential value of the gun quite clear. As some posters have stated, it may be a good purchase for some buyer, if the price is proper.
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Mark Kircher
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 01:28 pm |
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Bill,
I must disagree. Anyone who contributes (large or small) to this organization - has joined because they are seeking competent advice from the experts in the field. They have joined a fraternity. A group who among other things looks out for one another.
Comments from those "in the know" should be direct and forthright. Standing by to watch a dealer profit by misrepresentation and not giving facts known is complicity.
No man owes another it is just the right thing to do.
With that said, I have the Parker letter on the serial number Mr. Mertz claims belongs to the AHE. It describes a 20 gauge V grade gun. I would like to post that letter on this site for all to see.
Are there any objections to this? Is this against the rules?
Mark Kircher
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Eric Eis
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 01:36 pm |
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I don't see any problem with it, you are only stating what is in a PGCA letter, I am sure that would not go against the rules of this board. But heck what do I know, I've had posts deleted before . Eric
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 03:05 pm |
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| I don't neccesarily think that the gun is an upgrade because a PGCA search indicates that serial number is assigned to a VH grade gun. I have examined the gun over quite a long period of time and it doesn't show signs of upgrading. Errors in posting have been discovered before. On the other hand, Mr. Merz may have supplied an incorrect number. I seem to remember researching this gun some time ago and do not remember any discrepency in grade, but I do not have these research notes in front of me now. However, the exchange of information on this gun is, as mentioned by other posters, a positive thing. Last edited on Tue Sep 5th, 2006 03:08 pm by Bill Murphy
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Mark Kircher
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 04:13 pm |
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I do not believe it is an upgrade either. I believe that Chuck solved the riddle by determining that it is really serial number 69687 not 169687. That gun checks out as an AHE on a number 1 frame - but 12 gauge with Damascus barrels.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 04:47 pm |
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| Well, Mark, what was the point of your last post if you know you gave PGCA the incorrect number to research? I'm confused. I think we all agree that Mr. Merz is not the most cooperative seller of graded Parkers. Last edited on Tue Sep 5th, 2006 04:51 pm by Bill Murphy
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gill frye
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 09:50 pm |
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| If he gets the price right on that gun he will move it, somebody will buy it for what it really is(providing its an AH). If I were the dealer I'd get my own research letter and sell it with the gun and then everybodys happy, whats thirty bucks when your selling a gun for that much money.
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2006 10:09 pm |
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| Gill, you are right on and in agreement with some previous posters. The gun is not neccesarily an unacceptable gun, it is just priced a bit high for a gun with some non original features. And, yes, these sellers of high dollar Parkers should be displaying PGCA letters along with the guns.
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Mark Kircher
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 12:01 am |
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Bill,
I expressed my concerns to Mr. Merz after I had mailed my check. I told him to hold my money pending the Parker letter. At that point he must have known the serial number was bogus yet allowed the charade to continue.
Postings on the sight were useful yet frustrating. Many people seemed to be in the know yet kept me guessing as to what the real deal on the gun was. Until Chuck who laid it out for me.
My point is......Why - if people knew - would they not state clearly that the gun was misrepresented and give detail accordingly. After all it is not as though a post would require any real effort. What gain would anyone except Mr. Merz have if the transaction had been completed?
Seems to me the members of this site should feel obligated to outing such individuals and their misrepresentations. Unfortunately we cannot always rely on the dealers to be honest, but we could help each other out by typing a few words.
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Jay Gardner
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 01:46 am |
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Mark makes a very good point. Why let someone make a costly mistake? Let's face it, the real draw of this "community" is the opportunity to learn from others and the sharing of information, most often to prevent making a mistake.
____________________
Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:41 am |
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We've just about beat that subject to death here in the recent past and though I don't think we agreed to agree on anything in particular, we are not the mud-slinging PGCA mostly because we usually try to act in a gentlemanly manner lest some slung mud land on an undeserving dealer. If someone knows factually that a dealer is misrepresenting his wares then a PM or e-mail to the interested party should be sufficient. I surely would hope that someone would be kind enough to warn me of a potential deception but where opinions are simply opinions, innocents sometimes get hurt -so I would welcome a PM. As Jack pointed out recently on this same general topic, we need to be very careful in our accusations.
Dean 
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 03:09 am |
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| Well said, Dean.
____________________
Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Christopher S. Lien
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 09:14 am |
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Mark,
You have asked a valid question.
I had a few comments to add, but Dean's post covered a good portion of it in a more subtle manner. As Dean also noted, the subject of dealer and collector issues have been the topic of previous discussions here on the BBS.... Taking time to read all three pages in the Dec-05 thread link below may help provide answers to some of your more recent questions.
Best, Chris
../forum1/1029.html .
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 12:00 pm |
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| Mark, after reading the thread that Chris so kindly linked, maybe you should go back to page 1 of this thread. Before we get off page 1 and out of the month of July, I had posted that I had first hand knowledge of the gun, had handled it. I suggested that there was a problem with the provided serial numbers. I suggested that the gun may not only be not original in barrel condition but that there was serious doubt in my mind that the gun was built as a 16 gauge. I suggested that there was another thread out there that had included a discussion of the gun. I posted a synopsis of how the PGCA research system worked, what documents may include your gun and which would not. As of today, I have not received a private message asking for further information, even though I am a prolific poster who is obviously interested in assisting. My address and telephone number are displayed in the PGCA membership list. Please go back and reexamine your comments about the lack of assistance you are getting on this site. If I thought that Leroy was sleeping with his secretary, you would probably know it by now. What is it you don't understand about "I have a problem with the rib matting, the sight placement." or the ambiguous (in your mind) "The keels look wrong." Then there is the confusing statement by one poster, "The barrels are cut and the rib matting at the end was fooled with to cover it up." I also stated that there was no emergency about the timing of the PGCA letter, because the gun wasn't going anywhere. That is known as a "clue". Come on Mark, where were you when you were supposed to be reading the replies to your inquiries? My phone still isn't ringing and I have been looking at that gun for more than two years and said so. These guys did a wonderful job, giving as direct an assortment of answers as they could give and still stay out of court. To address your criticism of other posters and your love affair with Chuck, (who is a real nice guy, by the way) the information he gave you had been given to you by several other posters and you could have gotten it yourself from a PGCA letter if you knew the serial number. Chuck didn't tell you anything you didn't already know or suspect if you had been reading the replies to your inquiries. Chuck happened to know the serial number of the gun. Had the other posters known the serial number of the gun, they would have shared it with you. Last edited on Wed Sep 6th, 2006 12:28 pm by Bill Murphy
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Mark Kircher
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 01:44 pm |
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Bill,
My comments about the direct reply should not be considered a personal attack. I have again read all of your posts. You did put a doubt in my mind about the gun having been built as a 16 ga. However, I think you give yourself more credit than due with your "Clues".
You see Bill, I was never the smartest kid in my class - the fact is they never even let me sit up front. I have no formal training in detective work. I have trouble finding my arse with both hands.
I do not know what you know about these guns. That is why I joined this organization so I may rely on your's and others knowledge.
Now you may find some pleasure in you game of clues and perhaps I should also. But if the story ends with a dealer selling a gun that is misrepresented to an individual who attempted to use this site as a tool in the due diligence process and the transaction is completed because said individual was not a decendent of Detective Columbo and failed to find the clues that you and others had set out for him, that would be a shame.
Mark
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Mark Kircher
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 01:50 pm |
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| Here is the letter on serial number 169687 Attachment: Parker Letter on 169687 -2.jpg (Downloaded 125 times)
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:01 pm |
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| Sorry, Mark, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The posters on this thread and the thread that ended August 17 did a wonderful job telling you exactly what was right and wrong about this gun. They couldn't have been any more clear without having examined the gun personally. I do not share your opinion that the posters were playing detective games and don't find any humor in your final paragraph. I examined the gun several times over a couple of years, made that very clear. Chuck and I were there to give you further information from hands on inspection. Kevin McCormack had also inspected the gun and would have shared his feelings. If I were contemplating the purchase of a $15,000 gun and knew that someone who had actually handled the gun could be easily contacted, I would contact that person for his opinion. I'm sorry you are disappointed in the assistance offered. Last edited on Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:06 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:13 pm |
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Mark, here is the problem and Dean Romig said it very well. As an association we don't take positions on individual guns. As an association we always advise that a person take particular care and research in an expensive purchase. As an association we recommend a person obtain a PGCA research letter if one is available. We don't advise on price or value.
We provide this forum for discussions. We have seen where people undeservably slam a decent gun that they have not personally examined. We have seen where good dealers, who may also be PGCA members, get undeservably criticized and a debate starts and nobody wins. We have repeatedly urged participants to conduct themselves civily and air the dirty laundry or truly adverse comments in private messages. We hear of some sites where the discussion is so coarse or accusational that people tire of dealing with it and leave. We don't want that. Its far better that participants raise issues about guns and make themselves available by telephone call or private email for more candid conversations.
I would have said this in a private email, but I think its helpful to the readership at large and is in no way a personal attack on anybody.
____________________
Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:13 pm |
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| I have one more question, Mark. You had posted that the gun was on the way to Doug Turnbull's shop. Did he, on personal inspection, tell you what you suspect the posters on this thread knew all along? Personally, I would rather see Doug's report posted on this thread than a PGCA letter on a gun not being discussed.
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gill frye
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Posted: Wed Sep 6th, 2006 02:37 pm |
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Mark,
Consider yourself real lucky on this deal, about sixteen years ago I got burned on an A1 that was suposed to be right. I would have given anything to have had this forum to seek advice from, at that time there was no TPS or anything. Flip to the present and this forum helped me find my " needle in a hay stack gun", to me anyway. So your lucky you got the advice you got.
As far as the Merz gun, if its truely 69687 that makes it an AH thats been rebarreled to 16 ga. according to the Parker id. and serialization book (available at any gun show). If you really like this gun so much make the man an offer on the blooming thing and buy it. With all that said, personally I really like the gun even if it has been rebarreled but I wouldn't pay that much for it.
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