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Bruce Day
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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Carl, see you in Duluth...hope you have motel reservations or plan to camp on site. Rooms are hard to come by. Jack Puglisi is having a reception at 5pm Friday. Yes, bring your C, sounds like a light 12. Post a picture of the engraving if you can. Hope you can make it to Chief's training camp in River Falls this summer. Say hi to Coach Gun Cunningham, my old high school team mate. Truly a delightful town.
It was Jack Puglisi who enabled me to acquire that little 20ga. It was fair priced and an unusual gun. Almost all my guns have been acquired from individuals who were selling off. Jack was the first dealer from whom I had bought a gun in a long time, and it was a good forthright experience. Jack acquires the needles from all the haystacks.
Russ, Cabela's Owatonna had one for sale a couple months ago. It went quickly. I think its Derrick Stewart who was collecting some photos of C engraving.
Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 04:16 pm by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Russ Jackson
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 03:09 pm |
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Would you fellows suppose that the Brothers P. had an engraver that favored the roundels, or would you expect it may have been a special order treatment ? Remember earlier it was mentioned as being on a G grade that had sold on Gun Broker within this past year,apparently it wasnt only for the higher grades ?
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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| I suspect it was the work of a particular engraver, just as I suspect the Pluto dogs heads can be attributed to a person, or the bowling pin flying ducks. Apologies to Bill Murphy, but I think the work of the senior Runge is distinctive and he brought in a fresh style. Anyway that's my thought, and I'm no expert. It would be interesting to look at Parker engraving styles and see if anything can be determined. I wonder what Charlie Price or Bill Mullins might have to say? Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 03:28 pm by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Russ Jackson
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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Bruce; I think your thoughts are on the right track,I agree with the style of a particular engraver, if you look at alot of different guns certain styles really stand out! Well as said earlier I have really enjoyed this ,but I really need to get off my duff and get busy ! Hope all of you guys have a Great Day , And God Bless; Russ
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Jack Puglisi
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 03:42 pm |
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Bruce,
See you the night before the shoot at the reception. I might just put out a handful of my personal guns (NFS) as a little proof I too am a collectore!
The first day of the shoots falls on a family reunion I'm hosting so I'll miss that day but expect to be there Sunday.
Jack
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 05:04 pm |
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Jack Puglisi wrote: See you the night before the shoot at the reception. I might just put out a handful of my personal guns (NFS) as a little proof I too am a collectore!
If the members don't mind, I might take a few pictures of Jack's personal guns and post them. I suspect there might be a few nice high grade guns in there.
Translation: Collectore: A collector with Italian heritage.
Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 06:51 pm by Bruce Day
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RICHARD L ANDERSON
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 01:51 am |
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I missed the Roundel engraveing by a year as my CHE 20 dates to 1906. It has some unusual engraveing but I have no way of posing pictures or taking them for that matter.
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Jack Puglisi
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 02:36 am |
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Bruce,
Sometimes I forget Italian is my first language! Sorry! ore Eye 4get ta runn spel chec .
Jack
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Jack Puglisi
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 05:10 am |
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Getting back on subject between original and refinished?
I have seen a steady increased acceptance and values of totally redone American doubles holding true with certain partial refurbished guns as well. However I seldom if ever see a refinished gun bring what an original one in EQUAL condition brings in the collector circles. The only exceptions will be the ultra rare items.
Holding that thought understand within the new expanded shooters realm these redone doubles have a far more positive level of both acceptance as well values than with the collectors.
When the number of collectors wanting all, or mostly all, original guns is joined to the booming demand for classic American doubles returning to both hunting as well competitive fields there is simply inadequate amounts of untouched guns or mostly original guns to be found. These new found demands will be filled by redoing large numbers of old guns. The best hoped for is those doing the work will consider original styles as their bench marks.
Consider what effect adding more refinished/modified guns to the mix fulfilling the needs for modern shooting dimensions, special butts, forends, barrel lengths and chokes will have on these shotgun markets as numbers of original guns shrinks! All this from a small begining number of guns long out of production will without doubt alter those markets vastly!
Results from this new found demand for classic doubles manifests itself by this new found acceptance of redone guns which seem ever expanding. Another result can be seen by Galazan's Introduction of new classic double shotguns as well resurrecting some old classic names.
A somewhat frightening thought for collectors is each time an old gun is refurbished the pool of untouched guns shrinks causing these un-touched items to become more spendy!! Even as those guns that remain in somewhat less than perfect yet untouched condition are referbished slipping into the shooter markets they too will become even more scarce causing them to reach new heights of value.
Apply these ideas to far more limited numbers of sub gauges, including 16 gauge , we'll find ourselves yearning for today's values!
Just an opinion/observation!
Jack
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Pete Lester
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 09:34 am |
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I attended the recent Northeast side by side classic in PA. One of the things I observed was a large percentage guns being used by particpants on the course, regardless of maker were restored/refinished guns. I was surprised to see this and believe it is evidence of a growing acceptance and demand for restored guns.
While there I had the opportunity to meet Bill Murphy and show him my restored 3 frame 12 ga VH. I believe my gun is a case where restoration made sense. It had been very poorly refinished at some point. The orginality had been lost before I bought it. I believe I increased it's value and have kept it from being junked at some point.
I believe any gun that is used regularly will over the course of time need some restoration. If you want to "collect" and keep them locked away that is fine and well. If you want to shoot and hunt with them it eventually takes it's toll. Each gun is it's own case, restoration can make sense in some case for both sentimental and economical reasons.
We are all in this for different reasons but the common thread is our belief that there is something special about owning and shooting a Parker.
Last edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 09:35 am by Pete Lester
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:14 pm |
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Thanks, Jack; You have pretty well hit it on the head. As the population of refinished guns increases, the demand will decrease. Parkers were generally made with sufficient proud wood, and deep enough engraving to support a refinish. A gun that retains that potential for refinish is certainly more desirable than a gun which does not.
My own philosophy has been that any gun that can be protected from rusting on a rainy or humid day with a light coat of RIG need not be reblued. A lightly pitted gun should be reblued to arrest the pitting.
The original Parker shellac and oil stock finish is , and was designed to be, instantly repairable. A post season touch up can be undetectable, if the bare spot was not darkened by oil or sweat.
Best, Austin
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Jack Puglisi
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:53 pm |
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With most live game shooting not expanding but the clay shooting in a boom a lot more marginal collectable guns are being redone perhaps a bit too quickly! A friend of mine seems intent on refinishing guns in this questionable range suiting his personal taste. I can't fault him but it still thins the remaining never touched group.
Every time we add a new clay shooter type o gunning we expaand our long range support for our activities which is comforting.
Jack
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Robin Lewis
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 01:25 pm |
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Jack,
What are your thoughts on the demand side of the economic equation? I have noticed over the years that at gun shows and gun auctions that they have an obvious aging population, no young people to be seen. Not only are young people not hunting, they don’t seem to be involved in shooting either. In general, I don’t think there are young people collecting antiques, old tools, stamps, coins….. Etc.; the electronic age has usurped interest in collecting.
As we die off, there may not be anyone to fill the demand portion of the “supply and demand” equation and it may someday be hard to give away what is today hard to find?
I’m wondering if you may have made the same observation and have similar concerns.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 02:23 pm |
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| I will probably beat our (my) friend Jack to the punch here. He can agree or disagree. Young people have never written the big check for hot bird guns, nor have they been major participants in shotgun competitions, unless they have wealthy parents. Even the ones with wealthy parents usually abandon the check writing until their career and family aspirations reach maturity. Nothing much has changed except the total number of participants. As our young people mature financially, their interest in the fine things of an earlier time will also mature. The bottom line is that, even if the value of our junk somehow declines over time, we will still like it and will be looking for more. Jack will be here to help us.
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Charlie Price
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 03:38 pm |
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Bruce:
Thanks for implying that I may have some expertise to bring to this discussion -- identifying the "hand" of Parker gun engravers -- but I do not have any. I also have noted varying engraving styles and formats over the years but have not tried to determine which engraver (or engravers) produced a paricular characteristic item, such as the bowling pin ducks or male dogs. This would make an interesting study and I hope someone will try to figure it out and publish it.
IMHO, some Parker gun engraving is not especially artistic. I once owned a 1920 vintage AAHE that had beautiful scroll, a very appealing dog's head, but an almost comic-strip like grouse and elk. I shot just as well (or badly) with my Trojan as my AAHE, but when the birds weren't flying I could sit and admire the AAHE.
Regards,
Charlie Price
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 04:07 pm |
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| Thanks for your insight, Charlie. I might add that, regardless of the wealth of information included in the stock book pages, the name of the engraver is notoriously absent. There are at least 17 statements of specifications, finish and fit, dated, and sometimes attributed to a craftsman by name, but not the engraver. Strange, huh?
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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Bill Murphy wrote: Thanks for your insight, Charlie. I might add that, regardless of the wealth of information included in the stock book pages, the name of the engraver is notoriously absent. There are at least 17 statements of specifications, finish and fit, dated, and sometimes attributed to a craftsman by name, but not the engraver. Strange, huh?
As if the engraving of a graded Parker were nothing more than simply an embellishment akin to doodling on a blank page rather than the art it truly was, each artist with his own style. . . sad.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 05:28 pm |
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| I think part of the reason for not naming the engraver on the stock book page is that often the engraver was not an employee of Parker Brothers. Possibly the stock book entries were a record of fees paid to a piece worker. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
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Timothy Sheldon
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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I think there is a time and a place for restoration. But I think some of us get caught up in the zeel of collecting and try to pretty up all of our guns and after we mature as collectors we may be really sorry that we have done so.
Also, I still can not get my head around the raffle gun re-do. The gun looked just fine to me. Was it redone for promotional reasons for Mr. Turnbull and Edmands? (who's work does look splendid in the back page of Parker Pages)?
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Derrick Stewart
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 01:30 pm |
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Bruce,
I prefer the Original gun hands down. The restored gun is nice in it's own way but that original is a beauty.
Yes I am starting to collect photo's and spec's on these guns.
Dean,
I also look at Gunbroker on a regular basis and if their was a "G" grade gun with this style engraving I missed it too.
Russ,
Cabelas still has the "CHE" with Bernard barrels and roundel engraving but they have moved it to the "Sale Rack" and reduced the price. It's too bad I don't have that much money squirreled away or it would be coming home to NC.
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