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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:17 pm |
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| Just when I thought I had seen everything and had TPS committed to memory, something strange pops up. I thought I would get a parts gun running, so I dug out a set of barrels that were the right frame size and set about getting the two mated up. We have a back end and matching forend for a real nice #1 frame DHE, late Ilion gun, and we have a just as nice set of #1 frame 16 gauge barrels, 1929 vintage, also with a matching forend. We click the barrels on the action, everything fits great. We click the Ilion forend on and the ejectors don't seem to be in very good time, so we click on the 1929 forend. So far, so good, except one thing. The 1929 forend hangs out from the front of the action on both sides. The ejector trips on the DHE action are also too close together to match up with the 1929 forend. Remember, the DHE Ilion action is a true #1 frame because the firing pins are 1 1/16" apart. Referring to old reliable, page 516 of TPS, we find that this action is a #1 frame in firing pin separation only. All other frame and forend dimensions are #0 spec, even the stock is a 0 frame stock. Now I realize that there aren't a whole lot of Ilion guns out there, even fewer #1 frame Ilion guns, but are all Remington #1 frame guns made with actual #0 frames with 1 1/16" firing pin separations? I haven't had a #1 frame Ilion gun for many years, and I'm sure that one had a real #1 frame. It was a kind of a heavy sort of 16 gauge, probably a seven pounder. The serial number on my old VHE, the heavy one, is 241,417. The lightweight DHE is #241,562, not too far off. Would someone do some frame measurements on a #1 frame Remington gun so we can find out if there are a bunch of these things out there or just a few? I know everyone likes their 0 frame 16s, but this one took me by surprise. Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 09:20 pm by Bill Murphy
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 12:06 am |
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Bill; When I researched and assembled many author's inputs for the article on "Ending the Parker Operation" , I could not quite be sure, but I had a very strong feeling, that Remington never forged a Parker frame or forend iron in Ilion. At the time of cessation, there were no more 000 frames, and two started 410 guns remained without forends, for example.
There were some engineering/sales memos relative to making some 1/2 frames, as the feeling was that the market wanted lighter guns. There were no 2 or larger frames remaining at the close.
With respect to your question, it is highly probable that tooling and fixtures taken apart for shipping from Meriden in 1938 were re assembled differently in Ilion in 1939.
The only way I know to tackle this is to measure a lot of frames. I have a feeling that discontinuing the Trojan has a role in this but I am not sure.
Best Austin
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 01:28 pm |
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| Austin, I'm a bit mystified by the lack of 000 frames at the end of production. Late in the Remington-Parker era, Remington decided to use the 000 frame for 28 gauge as well as .410 guns. They must have had some intention of forging more 000 frames if they were getting low. I guess the decision to go to the 000 .410 frame for 28 gauge guns means that they were out of 00 frames and were trying to standardize the production of these low production items. Considering that my combination 0 and 1 frame gun and similar guns are not mentioned in TPS, we might come to the conclusion that it is unique or maybe very rare. However, a more reasonable explanation may be that most collectors don't measure their frames with calipers very often. I would never have noticed had I not been switching barrels and forends. I also measured the stock and skeleton butt on my 16 gauge and find that the butt measures about 4 1/2" long and 1 3/8" wide at its widest point. In my experience, that is 00 frame butt dimension. Can someone confirm this for me? I have no idea what the frame marking is on the barrel lug for this gun since the original barrels are missing. Does anyone have the barrels for #241,562? I assume they are 16 gauge. The most astounding part of this unusual combination frame is that a set of 12 gauge #1 frame barrels would snap right on this gun, creating a very unusual, maybe unique, #0 frame 12 gauge. Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 01:37 pm by Bill Murphy
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 03:55 pm |
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Bill;I once made the calculation that a three gauge (12,20,28) skeet set could be made on the zero frame.
Someone recently showed a 1 inch on center 12 ga back action; I have a lifter that is filed to zero dimensions but has 1 1/16 inch centers.
I once estimated, from the photo of the "first warehouse" in American Machinist, that Parker was usually about 3000 barrels ahead. Only 7000 more guns were made after regular production ceased in 1930. It appears that 3 - 4000 were started in 1935 - 37 with DuPont's money. Only about 1500 were started after the move to Ilion.
Remington disposed of left over Parker parts at least three times. Thousands of hammers and internal parts remain. It would appear that Remington made up a few years parts at Meriden before the move, then assembled barrel sets and made single triggers in Ilion.
Best, Austin
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 09:01 pm |
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Simple - if the Ilion frame measures 1-frame specs between the firing pins only, but the external dimensions are strictly 0-frame, you've got a bastard 1/2 frame!!!
Are the case colors original? If not, who redid them? (Turnbuckle or Gadzooks?) What about the bluing - correct cold rust or paint-on Numrich Oven-Baster Black? And the wood - correct French Polish and, if so, dipped or brushed on? (Tell me its not the strange and terrifying hand-sprayed Poly Laquer of the early 1970'.s! Early Circassian or late Remington Illion WInchester/Parker feathercrotch M21 standard?
Cut barrels or no? Quick, call Herschel Chadick!! You may have stumbled upon the once-in-a-lifetime "lunchbox" gun without even knowing it and it could be worth a fortune! (Walter King, Runge, and the Storm brothers are probably ready to come out of their graves!). They'll probably be a scene at the Meriden Cemetary tonight like something out of a Toby Hooper movie - "Night of the Outraged Gunmakers".
All this reminds me of the alchemy of old taken to a new dimension.......
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 09:27 pm |
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Kevin; Is the height of the standing breech the same on the zero and one? The 1 1/2 has the same pin spacing as the two, but is shallower at the breech to save weight if desired.
Best, Austin
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 10:43 pm |
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Is it just my observation as a result of an inadequate number of guns seen, or am I correct in believing a Rem Parker 12ga on a 1 frame is a rare gun? It seems I hear of or see 1/2 frame 12's but never a 1 frame on these late guns. I have never seen an actual late Rem Parker 1 frame 12 and I wonder if they exist. Bill?
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Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 10:50 pm |
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| Well, leave it to my friend Mr. McCormack to tell me what I have after being mystified for days. Odd that I was looking at the dimension chart and couldn't see the forest for the trees. OK, so I now have a 1/2 frame gun after watching all of my PGCA buddies coming up with them for years. Of course, mine is a spiffy little gem since it has 16 gauge barrels and weighs about 6 1/4 pounds. Why didn't Remington make 1/2 frame 16 gauges?? Thank you, Kevin. You are "the man". Austin and I are staring at our boots and kicking up mud clods.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:01 pm |
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| Bruce, it has been my experience that there are very few if any Ilion #1 frame 12s, but there are #1 frame Ilion 16s, and I thought I had one. Now that Kevin let the cat out of the bag, I realize that I have bought a 1/2 frame gun and was too confused to realize it. I guess the 00 size stock and buttplate should have been a clue, but I have never seen a 1/2 frame gun that was this light, so I didn't realize what I was looking at. I will be in church this Sunday so I won't be testfiring. Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:02 pm by Bill Murphy
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 01:54 am |
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Bill would this be of any help.
Dave...
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Dave....
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:16 am |
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Reminds me of when the first explorers of British East Africa captured and exhibited the first upland gorilla at the Paris Exhibition in the late 1870's. No one could have possibly believed that such a beast could exist, but the Brits put forth the proof for all the world to see.
Observers fantasized that that the creature must represent the missing link between the real and the ultimately imagined; the connection between man and the almost-man. Sort of like the soon-to-be-beheld combination of fluid steel barrels and automatic ejectors on double barreled shotguns - like the number of years between discovery and realilty had been squeezed beyond possibility.
Anthropologic documentation and technological development once again found the proponents of the expertise of the modern world "overdriving their headlights". The Great Apes flung bananas (and their end-of-the-pipe byproducts) only a few years before the fabulous AAHE Pigeon Guns hurled their spent empties onto the grassy aprons behind the 21-yard markers in Cincinnati, Peoria, and Columbus.
"Might have started life in Meriden as a 2-frame 12-gauge, but it went back later on to have 1- frame barrels in 16 gauge fitted to it. Record book shows it was later rebarelled as an 0-frame in Ilion fitted to a 1/2-frame." A PGCA letter might give us a clue. Like the thermos bottle that keeps cold Bloody Marys cold or hot coffee hot, "How Do It Know?". No IBM cards or scribbled notes for this one!
Know it; love it; shoot it; the clay pigeons, doves and pheasants won't give a Tinker's Damn! Mount smoothly, keep your head down on ths stock, and FOLLOW THROUGH! Ah, the roar of the Hoppes. the smell of the Circassian!
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:49 am |
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| Clearly the deadly combination of smoldering Dominican puro and more than a few gills of Hebridean malt has begun to get traction somewhere in the long shadow of our Nation's Capitol...
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 01:12 pm |
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| Don is obviously not as impressed as I at the flowery verbalizing of Mr. McCormack on the subject of a bottom feeder's new 16 gauge half frame DHE. Now, in contrast, I am grateful for friend Kevin's interesting comparison of the Ilion hybrid to other freaks of nature and man's ingenuity. Don's WAG at what is causing the Redhead to flow so freely with the fruits of the prose bank may be a good one, since KM is now among the gainfully unemployed and most gunning seasons are over for a few months. However, as Don probably knows, my contribution to the great find is "Clean Living" including abstinence from any ingested substance potentially harmful to the body.
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Chuck Bishop
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 01:36 pm |
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Ain't this forum just great? Where else could you find out about British East Africa explorers, upland gorillas, anthropologic documentation and technological developments, smoldering Dominican puro, Hebridean malt, and a 1/2 frame size 16ga Parker. What a history lesson. This thread sure isn't boring!
____________________
Chuck Bishop
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 02:50 pm |
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| Thanks, Dave, that spec sheet for half frames is not something that I have seen before. 1930?? A bit earlier than I would expect.
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Harry Sanders
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:00 pm |
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Bill,
Your half frame should be marked as follows: (1/2 rearward of the top tang screw on the underside of the tang)
and the firing pin offset as follows per the drawing Dave provided:
Zero Frame...Half Frame...One Frame
another view of the frames same order as pins/strikers:
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:04 pm |
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| Thanks, Harry. Way more information than I expected.
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 01:40 am |
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Bill,If you would like a copy I could mail ya one.
Dave....
____________________
Dave....
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Timothy Sheldon
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 02:53 am |
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Damn, I've gotta go get my head together, was the a half frame or a half pound??? 
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Frank Halsey
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 04:02 am |
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| Bruce, I checked the gun that I bought to the first grouse hunt that I showed you, the vhe and it is a no. 1 frame gun. I thought it was a 1/2 frame but it is not. someone lightly scatched a slash and 2 on the lug. It also measures 1 1/16" between firing pins. Is there any other way of checking to make sure? The serial # on my gun is 241657 with the overload stamps from remington. Thanks, Frank
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