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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 11:21 am |
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| Frank, the correct pin spacing for both the 1/2 and the 1 frame is 1 1/16 inches. The exact dimensions of each, different in several ways, are found in The Parker Story, page 527 I believe.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 11:22 am |
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| Dave, I would like to have a copy of that spec sheet. Thank you.
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 12:25 pm |
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Were the 1/2 frames forged; or filed from 1 frames? The 1941 Remington memo infers that 1/2 frames were needed to meet demand for lighter S X S's if production were to continue.
On the other hand, Remington built some high grade 8 pound trap guns on 1/2 frames.
At the cessation of the Parker Operation , there were no 2 frames or 000 frames remaining, and no small frame forend irons.
I think that there is an open question here; were all of the frames finished in Ilion started in Meriden? Remington had a new Parker prototype by 1941; did they continue production with Meriden frames while awaiting approval of the prototype? Were the 1/2's used to stretch production?
The prototype was a B grade, and was stolen during World War 2.
Best, Austin
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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Last edited on Mon May 5th, 2008 12:59 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 10:50 pm |
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| For the second time in less than a year, I agree with my friend Bruce Day about something. HC would no more pay $1350 (or $1425) for a postwar standard grade Model 70 with a recoil pad than he would swim with sharks. OK, bad comparison, but you get the message. The poster is relating a story that doesn't pass the truth test. The moderator should get out the hook.
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 10:54 pm |
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Austin, the post about light 12's....the point that struck me most about these 1/2 frame 12's was the research published in Parker Pages that demonstrated that the 1/2 frame only weighed less than a comparable 1 1/2frame in the 26" barrel length. The lightest Parker 12 I ever saw was a VH 12/26 1 frame with plain stock and extractors, at 6 1/2lbs. The 1/2 frame 12s I have seen are around 7lbs, as are some of the 1 1/2 frame 12's so even then is only a couple ounces. I like these late guns, but the 1/2 frame issue is kind of more allure than fact.
Added: I just noticed Jack Puglisi has a nice 241??? SN DHE 12/28, 1/2 frame for sale. It is common late Rem Parker configuration with SST , pad and beavertail, but it weighs 8lbs2oz. So much for light weight.
Last edited on Sun May 4th, 2008 11:41 pm by Bruce Day
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:18 am |
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Bruce; My own hypothesis about the 1/2 frame is that Parker tried it in 1930 as a way to make a three barrel (12,20,28) skeet set. When the 410 became a competition gauge, it was not possible to make an all gauge set on a single frame. This remains a hypothesis because the dates of 1/2 frame manufacture, announcement of rules, and beginning of rumors are not precisely known.
There may be a 1/2 frame gun that was produced before the Remington takeover, but I cannot place it.
With respect to weight, we know from two barrel set guns that Parker could change overall weight by a pound, and maintain the same balance, on the same frame and stock.
Harry's photo of the 1/2 on the tang is the major fact here; Parker did not note frame size on frames, only on barrels. The tang stamp indicates the shop had to be warned this was not a regular 1 frame, because it would fit 1 frame tooling.
Best, Austin
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 02:18 am |
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A 12,20 and 28 set. I would love to be able to order one now.
We know of quite a few 10/12ga sets on 2 frames. What about 12/16 sets on a 1 or 1 1/2 frame? I know of two 1 frame 12/16 sets people have had done, but they are not original. Or any other multi-gauge sets?
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:31 pm |
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We don't find many 1 frame 12 ga guns made after introduction of the 1 1/2 frame. A 1 frame , 32 inch , 20/16/12 set would be very nice; as would an 0 frame 28/20/16 set. Parker's policy of one half gun cost per set of barrels limited sale of multi barrel sets.
Best, Austin
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:48 pm |
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| The Cliff Green BHE two gun skeet set was built as a 12-20 on a 1/2 frame and a 28-.410 on a 00 frame. That particular gun was apparently built before Remington produced prototype 28 gauges on the 000 frame. Now that would be quite a little gun, a 28-.410 two barrel set on the 000 frame.
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:58 pm |
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Frank Halsey wrote: Bruce, I checked the gun that I bought to the first grouse hunt that I showed you, the vhe and it is a no. 1 frame gun. I thought it was a 1/2 frame but it is not. someone lightly scatched a slash and 2 on the lug. It also measures 1 1/16" between firing pins. Is there any other way of checking to make sure? The serial # on my gun is 241657 with the overload stamps from remington. Thanks, Frank
Hello Frank. I have seen a 1 frame from the 1920's where somebody crudely made it try to look like a 1/2. That was a laughable attempt. But with a 241 SN it might be a 1/2 because as Austin says, a 241SN 1 frame , none of us have seen that late a 1 frame 12ga. Wonder what all the measurements are? If it is a 1 frame, that would be nice to know.
A 241,657 is definitely close to the end of production. I own 241,601 and the Rem records of guns remaining unfinished start soon after. You are lucky to have it.
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:15 pm |
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Bill, I don't know Cliff Green, you mean Charlie Green? I've not seen the gun you describe but it sounds to be quite the piece.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 02:42 pm |
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| The Cliff Green gun has been described in DGJ and TPS.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 04:42 pm |
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Bruce Day wrote: A 12,20 and 28 set. I would love to be able to order one now.
We know of quite a few 10/12ga sets on 2 frames. What about 12/16 sets on a 1 or 1 1/2 frame? I know of two 1 frame 12/16 sets people have had done, but they are not original. Or any other multi-gauge sets?
Bruce, are you refering specifically to Remington Parkers? If not, don't forget Larry's CHE 1-frame Bernard 12/16; maybe you were including that gun in the "two" you refer to.
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 09:40 pm |
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Mr.Murphy,The spec sheet went out this a.m. U S Mail
Dave.....
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 10:27 pm |
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| Thanks. I may use it for a case label for the new grouse gun.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Apr 20th, 2009 04:59 pm |
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| Bringing this thread to the top to add to the 1/2 frame discussion. Note the 1/2 frame blueprint that Dave Suponski posted.
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Mon Apr 20th, 2009 05:07 pm |
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| Bill,I already sent a copy to Craig via email. Thanks for taking the time to move this thread to the top.
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Mon Apr 20th, 2009 07:59 pm |
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Another year's wisdom. While doing some fact checking for an article to appear in the next PP, I measured mid point barrel diameter and breech diameter for several frame sizes.
Parkers were made in precision tooling, and important dimensions, such as firing pin hole separation, are quite precise. The outside dimensions are hand finished and may be 1/16 inch (or more) less than the nominal frame forging. This is one way that they removed weight to achieve balance.
I have a one frame lifter that measures zero frame dimensions across the breech. I also have a couple of light two frame hammerless guns that apparently went on the Nicholson diet.
Best, Austin
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Mon Apr 20th, 2009 08:40 pm |
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They certainly varied. I have a 2 frame 32" that weighs 7/ 14 and I've seen 1 1/2 frame 30's that were heavier. I had a 1 frame 30" 12ga that weighed 8/2. Its often thought that the bigger the frame, the heavier the gun, and generally I think that's true, but not always so. I like the 2 frame guns with significantly contoured barrels. I don't own a 1/2 frame 12, I've waived one around a bit and I liked it, but the PP documentation showed they are lighter only with 26" barrels, a surprise.
I've been impressed the way Parker was able to achieve a selected balance with different ga barrel sets and barrel lengths. Lots of vintage and present guns are not able to achieve that.
Last edited on Mon Apr 20th, 2009 08:43 pm by Bruce Day
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