 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Dave Suponski
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 1027 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 08:53 pm |
|
Drew,I,m not sure what Dave you are talking about but if it is my BH I will tell ya the story.When I got the barrels back from Oscar he told me they were a lot of fun to do because they were the finast damascus pattern he had ever seen on a Parker and that he felt that they were six iron crolle. But I have to tell you that the barrels on that fantastic hammergun of Tom,s look a lot like mine.I would love to get both guns together to compare them. When time permits I will try to take some better pictures.
Dean I can,t wait to see that damascus 28 of yours 
Dave...
____________________
Dave....
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 09:31 pm |
|
That would be YOUR incredible BH Dave S. And I would most appreciate additional high resolution close up pics of your, and Tom's, barrels. Feel free to post them, or e-mail by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and many thanks! Drew
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Larry Frey
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 12:45 am |
|
| I've had the pleasure of handling Dave's wonderful old BH and can honestly say they have the tightest Damascus pattern I have ever seen. From a distance of only a couple of feet they look almost solid silver/gray.
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 02:42 am |
|
Dave and Larry, I will agree with you both on those barrels being "finest Damascus" and are definitely equal to Tom's barrels, having examined them both first-hand.
Dean
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 03:11 pm |
|
More great examples coming in; these 3 CH Bern4 courtesy of Bruce Day. He's going to get me a close up of the middle brls which have been refinished by Bro. Edmonds
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 01:12 am |
|
Well the plot thickens further.
In reviewing the Birmingham Proof House test of 1891 as published in The Field, and reproduced in Double Gun Classics http://www.doublegunclassics.com/alt/DGCJanFeb06.pdf the list of barrels tested includes both Belgian and English Three and Two Rod "Laminated Damascus" Here, again, is Bob Brown's "Best Laminated Damascus" brl
I just received a copy of the 1888 Colt Patent Firearms catalog, and they also have a quality gradation from Twist to Laminated to Damascus. SO, the Parker "Best Laminated" which is a grade below the "Fine Damascus" used on Quality G guns is likely "Two Rod Laminated Damascus" of either an English or Belgian source.
I think
Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2007 01:13 am by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 01:58 pm |
|
Don't know how I missed this  Hunter Arms used "Laminated Steel" on Quality No. 1 guns 1892-1898. Two Iron "Good Damascus" was used until 1907, when "Special Steel" by Halcomb Steel Co. was introduced. I was thinking possibly Laminated steel was discontinued related to the 1890 McKinley Tariff, but that doesn't fit either. Could someone please look in TPS and see when Parker stopped using Laminated barrels?
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 05:23 pm |
|
Perseverance pays off!!
http://books.google.com/books?id=-QUtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=english+laminated+steel&source=web&ots=KjEsu3gVL0&sig=JDK1SczVRTlP5vav4sSxAXI6tLQ#PPA160,M1
Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175
From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159:
The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.
From "The Parker Gun" by Ron Kirby http://www.ogca.com/parker_gun_by_ron_kirby.htm
During the time that all of the opening mechanisms were being perfected, the science of barrel production seemed to lag, especially in America. The simplest solution was to purchase barrel tubes from England and Europe. Although the grade of the early Parkers were not marked either in the catalogs or on the guns, the type of barrel steel was the main determining factor. The lowest grade used English Twist steel, and ascended to the highest six-blade Damascus at the top grade. Belgium Damascus is thought to be Parker’s largest supplier, but research is underway to shed light on the importation of barrel steel. French Damascus steel, trade name, Bernard Steel, was used later on one specific grade. English made Whitworth Fluid Steel was an option near the end of the century for Parker’s two highest grades. Experiments were conducted on different types of steel during the period 1868-1878, and some actually made it to market. These were not successful because of both weight and strength. They were designated as plain steel (gun iron), decarbonized steel and laminated steel. All three were discontinued by 1878. So the imported Damascus steel became the barrels of choice of the American sportsman, and the controversy of their strength is being debated even today. In the last years of the 19th Century high quality fluid steel became available from Europe. The American steels dominate within ten years. By the end of World War I, Damascus was no longer available.
Bob Brown's Laminated Steel 10g Quality O on the PictureTrail is an 1893 gun so that data is not quite right.
Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2007 05:42 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 07:17 pm |
|
The Birmingham Proof House Test of 1891
As published in The Field, and reproduced in Double Gun Classics http://www.doublegunclassics.com/alt/DGCJanFeb06.pdf
The strongest barrels were:
1. English machine forged 3 rod Laminated steel
2. English fluid compressed steel, Whitworth process (fluid steel)
3. English machine forged 2 rod Best Damascus
4. English steel Siemens - Martin process (fluid steel)
5. English hand forged 4 rod Best Damascus
6. English machine forged 2 rod variegated Damascus
7. English machine forged 3 rod Best Damascus
8. English carburised steel, Darby’s method
9. English machine forged 2 rod Laminated steel
10. English “Superior Barrel Steel”
11. English machine forged chequered 3 rod Damascus
12. Foreign steel, Siemens – Martin process
13. English steel, hematite process, from pig and scrap
18. Foreign “Pointille’” Twist
24 & 25. Foreign 3 rod and 4 rod “Crolle’”
26. English machine forged 4 rod “Boston” Damascus
32. English machine forged 2 rod “Boston” Damascus
Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2007 07:23 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Bob Brown
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sun Sep 24th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 224 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 07:55 pm |
|
Thank you for the additional info, Drew. It appears the British laminated steel was well respected back then. I believe there were many more late laminated barrels than are apparent in the Parker serialization book. At some point the people recording the original books(doubtfull since mine lettered as laminated), or perhaps those compiling the info started calling them twist. I don't have The Parker Story yet. My 76,783 was in the middle of a run of 25 guns listed as the same configuration. 76,790 is one of those. It looks to be the same configuation as mine(30" laminated). The barrels are marked laminated. It is for sale on the Gunderson Militaria website for $650. I would have bought it to have a matched set, but its in rougher shape and importing guns into Canada from the U.S. is a pain in the butt. I traded some PMs lately with one of the PGCA members about a gun he was looking at, 77,770, which according to the book was a hammer gun made later in 1893. It also is recorded in the book as twist, but had 32" laminate barrels. The latest laminated gun listed in Parkers Found is 72,297, but I think there are many later ones out there.
Bob
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2007 03:10 am |
|
From The Gun and Its Development, W.W. Greener, 8th edition, 1907
The word laminated, as the designation of a gun barrel, arose from the fact that…thin strips, plates, or laminae of steel, piled alternately with iron plates, formed the composite metal. They differ from Damascus in so far as the iron and steel are differently arranged in the pile, so that instead of a decided curl in the figure there is only what may be termed “herring-bone” lines running spirally round the barrel from end to end.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224&dq=%22laminated+steel%22#PPA225,M1
Last edited on Sun Aug 5th, 2007 03:11 am by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 08:06 pm |
|
Tom Carter graciously provided many excellent pics of his neat Quality 5 Lifter. It is indeed 6 Iron Crolle (for the entire barrel), but there are many flaws in the pattern, and 2 or 3 weld lines.
Similar scrolls compared to the bottom 4 Iron D4
My thought is that 6 Iron is so difficult to manufacture, it's unlikely this was an in-house barrel, BUT it may have been an experiment that didn't turn out so well, which would explain why the brls were used for a 'give away', but very high grade, gun. The pics are the first 8 on the 'Damascus Anomalies' album
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=18015717&uid=6511424
The search to identify Parker's Belgian barrel maker continues.
Last edited on Tue Nov 27th, 2007 09:08 pm by Drew Hause MD
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Dean Romig
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | Andover, Ma |
| Posts: | 4887 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 09:24 pm |
|
As ever the investigator, Drew you continually come up with new information about damascus and twist barrel manufacture and have done it once again. Thank you for continually sharing this information with us. . . great stuff!
In reference however, to the overlapping hammer-welded seams of the bands where one band is laid over the other in order to continue the length of the band, the "flaw" is only such to the eye in the continuity of the Damascus artform and certainly not to the strength of the band or the barrel of which it is the integral part.
|
Drew Hause MD
Member
|
Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 09:49 pm |
|
Thanks Dean, and good point. BTW: Michael Allee has promised pics the next time he repairs a damascus tube, and believes, done correctly, the weld is as strong as the original barrel. The technique might have changed a bit in 120 years however 
____________________
http://www.damascusknowledge.com-a.googlepages.com/home
|
Current time is 07:04 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 |
|
|
|
|
