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Robin Lewis
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 01:46 pm |
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I have a Julia auction ad for a March 2007 sale that will contain the Czar's Parker. It's SN 168304. I checked the Parker Story and it talks about the gun and the serial number but I always thought this was more myth than fact. The ad shows the same Parker letter as shown in the Parker Story as well as tags.
So what do you think? Real or not? If it's real, will the czar's name add big bucks or not? I have seen guns with celebrity names attached, that had expected high values, that didn't get near the expected price. Will this one?
Opinions anyone.
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Frank DAmico
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 02:33 pm |
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| Isn't this the one that was faked years ago by a well know American gunmaker? I would like to hear more about this also.
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Larry Frey
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 02:53 pm |
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| The gun pictured in TDGJ did not appear to have any gold or be as ornate as the gun featured in TPS. Perhaps this is the real Czar's Parker. As to the gun faked years ago by a well known gun maker I must be the only one who hasn't heard that story yet. If it somehow violates the BBS rules perhaps someone would be so kind as to send me a PM regarding this gun. Larry
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 03:04 pm |
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| There is quite a bit of information out there on the fake Czar's Gun. I believe it has been pictured in articles on the subject and it was displayed at the Gold Medal Concours at Millbrook in a previous year. It is or was owned by a PGCA Officer who has probably shot pheasants with it. It is a wonderful gun, with wonderful accessories. Now that it is a matter of discussion, I would hope that the PGCA research committee would post a copy of the original order for the gun on this site so that members can enjoy it. $40.00 will buy you a letter, but the "research committee" could give you an even more interesting look at the gun, the original order. There is no doubt that it will bring the proper price. It is the most mysterious of all Parkers. I can't recall where the original "Czar's Gun" and its accompanying letter from Parker Brothers was originally discussed. Maybe a poster will recall and post this information. Was it in TPS? Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 03:05 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 04:12 pm |
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Dave, that is generally my understanding, but there is the letter by Charles Parker published in TPS in which he states they made the gun for the Czar. It does make sense that an assistant for the Czar would handle the matter. That was why I was precise in my wording. All we now have is the order by the colonel in the Czar's staff and the statement by Charles Parker, plus the gun. Its an A-1S...I stand corrected.
The true gun will be sold at auction March 7 and I understand Parker collectors planning to attend the auction will try to get together for dinner. I might get up to this one, as it could be a significant auction. We will also have something about all this in the Parker Pages with photos to dispell conjecture and get the facts out.
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 04:39 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 05:25 pm |
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| OK, so Charlie has not shot pheasants with the Tony Czar gun. However, in my first week of ownership, I will buy a field of cockbirds at my local preserve, Native Shore, and test old #168,304 for proper function and pattern. By the way, a picture of the real Czar's gun is in the Gun Digest magazine, latest issue, and also in the postcard sent by James Julia advertising the auction. I believe these are the first illustrations of this gun made public. The pages in TPS that discuss the Real Czar's Gun are authored by Mullins, Gunther, Parker, and Price, more author participation than any other chapter in the two volume work. The letter from Parker Brothers to the owner of the gun is reproduced on page 664 of TPS. The nine pages in TPS that discuss the Real Czar's Gun and Not the Czar's Gun are facinating reading and include the exact wording of the legible parts of the original order. The stock book entry is missing. Hopefully, the new owner of the Real Czar's Gun will be given the true identity of the original owner. In TPS and the James Julia ads, the identity of the family is not exposed. Even the TPS's extensive discussion of the two guns leaves many questions unanswered about #168,304 and its origins.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 05:34 pm |
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| Maybe she got secretive and protective about it because she wanted to maintain her privacy and still does and that should be respected.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 05:36 pm |
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So someone here has actually named the person who built the Not the Czar's Gun. Even the authors of TPS didn't expose that person by name. However, the first purchaser of Not the Czar's Gun has never been named in any document I am aware of, except the original court documents of the lawsuit described by the authors. I believe the second party is Mr. Clark Cail, a gun dealer and collector of some repute. I see no problem in mentioning his name since his interest in Not the Czar's Gun shows that he has good taste in shotguns. If I am incorrect in my identity of this person, I will erase my post and apologize for my error. See you fellows at the auction.
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 05:57 pm |
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Robin Lewis wrote: I have a Julia auction ad for a March 2007 sale that will contain the Czar's Parker. It's SN 168304. I checked the Parker Story and it talks about the gun and the serial number but I always thought this was more myth than fact. The ad shows the same Parker letter as shown in the Parker Story as well as tags.
So what do you think? Real or not? If it's real, will the czar's name add big bucks or not? I have seen guns with celebrity names attached, that had expected high values, that didn't get near the expected price. Will this one?
Opinions anyone.
Why wait to see if the Czar's gun's provenance will bring big bucks when you can buy Joe DiMaggio's M 21 Winchester right now from the Hartman Boys up at Elmira Arms for a paltry $100K!?
I doubt the connection with the name will significantly enhance the value of the gun. I have owned several guns with bona fide connections to famous people and the price differential above what the contemporary market would bear at the time of purchase was negligible. KBM
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 06:26 pm |
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The story of the Czar's gun being built in Meriden as related in TPS has always struck me as a bit of hometown newspaper puffery certainly in keeping with the journalistic standards of the time. The fact that an officer in the Imperial Russian Army ordered a Parker as ill advised as his timing seemed to be and let mention of his Czar "in passing" seems more credible. Why would Parker Bros. deny the rumor? One would of thought a direct order from the Imperial Court would have been handled by the Russian Ambassador or its Consul in NYC. The only thing for sure is that Nicholas II did have an inexplicable penchant for boxlocks from a few shooting photos of him. Anything less than definitive proof of a direct commission from the Imperial Household will make it just another high grade Parker with a story. Maybe even a true story, who knows?
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 06:32 pm |
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High grade Parkers were often owned by the rich and famous, so accounting for individuals is difficult. Bill, I hope you made some money from the sale of that old Suburban( or maybe ten of them) if you are planning to be the owner of SN 168304.
And with respect to the issue of whether the Czar really ordered it for himself is just speculation and who knows what the truth is? I don't. Czar Nicholas isn't talking. All anyone has is the sparse contemporary record and I suppose we could have as many opinons as there are people with interest. All Iknow is that we have an interesting new A-1S with a history that is available for those with the money to be serious and we have a gorgeous, high craftsmanship work of art done in the style that was thought to be fitting for the Czar. And what other make of gun do we have these issues? The only competitor is Purdey and where is the Purdey site, peridical and collector organization with those comparitively few guns made? I'm not aware of a Benelli Collectors Association, either.
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 06:54 pm by Bruce Day
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 07:44 pm |
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| http://www.purdey.com James Purdey was stocking for Joe Manton when Chas. Parker was born in 1809 and founded his own firm in Oxford St. in 1814. As we know they are still in business. Certainly Boss &Co and Holland & Holland (and perhaps Westley Richards) can legitimately join Purdey as both contemporary gunmakers and reservoirs of gunmaking history including their client lists. Other than occasional forays into less embellished variants of their "best guns" and the odd boxlock, in the case of the London firms, they never entered the mass market in the industrial era. Parker did and failed. The four British firms stiil make guns today. As $1000 will buy you a functional Parker and not much other than a tie at the other firms, it's not surprising there is more hobby interest in the Parker Gun. Parker's average production for a single year equalled Purdey's for 10. Rather than emulating his English (German) cousin, HRH George V (a Purdey man through and through), Czar Nicky was fond of Belgian guns, Lebeaus in particular if I recall correctly. They are still in business too...more or less. What is an interesting question is, why was there no American equivalent of Purdey or Boss? In the Gilded Age when the London makers solidified their reputations, American gunmakers like Hunter Arm, Parker and later Fox attempted to bridge the gap in the shotgun marketplace from medium low to high end. Other than individual custom gunsmiths, nothing like what we would call today "a boutique" maker arose. Why then did not Philadelphia or New York City have their "Purdey"? Without such a genesis, there can be no survival.
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John Davis
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 08:15 pm |
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Letter from Parker Bros. to a Park Ave., New York, address dated December 16, 1915:
"Beg to acknowledge receipt of your check in payment for the Czar gun, for which please accept our thanks. Hope you enjoyed your trip in the Canadian woods, and regret to learn that you have not as yet had an opportunity of trying out the shooting qualities of the Czar gun. This gun which you purchased was originally ordered by the officers of the staff of the Czar of Russia, to be presented to him by them. The gun was ordered from Parker Bros., to be absolutely first class in every respect, and of our highest grade. The gun was shipped from here by express in July, 1914, but before the Express Company was able to forward it from New York, war broke out in Europe, and the gun was returned to us. After keeping it for several months, - being unable to get in touch with the people in Russia who had contracted for the gun, we decided to sell it, and are pleased to know that you are the possessor of this splendid gun. It certainly is a work of art, and has, in our opinion, few, if any equals in this country today. We hope that you will enjoy the use of this gun, and that its performance will be so satisfactory that we may be commissioned by you to make a nice little 20 gauge gun of this same grade for your wife."
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 08:18 pm by John Davis
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 08:29 pm |
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Well there you go. John had TPS at hand and quoted the letter. We call it the Czars gun but maybe the most accurate title is " Gun Intended to be Fealty to the Tsar" or acronym "GIFT".
Since it really wasn't the Czars gun , I guess I won't be bidding on it. I don't have the money anyway. ( SOUR GRAPES....sounds to be an interesting gun for the right collector, and I really hope we can see it at a PGCA mtg sometime).
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 08:46 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 09:37 pm |
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| Maybe the owner of the "Czar's Gun" actually did have the 20 gauge made for his wife. If PGCA would field a research committee, maybe we could locate the "Czar's Gun's Owner's Wife's Gun", or at least the order for that particular gun. I admit that I always felt it a bit unusual that the Colonel would order the Czar's gun from my old friend O.R.Dickey rather than directly from the factory. I guess if we decide that the Czar's Gun is really not the Czar's Gun, it may sell for a mere pittance. Kevin should have bought Joe Dimaggio's Model 21 while it was in the hands of a more than noteworthy Southeastern Pennsylvania honest gun dealer. Now that the Hartman Brothers have it, it will no longer be the best ever found with no screw turned, and the price will be higher. Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 09:41 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 09:51 pm |
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Wishful thinking. Its still the gun made for presentation to the Czar, its still an A-1S, and any collector wanting it will know what it is and bid on the merits of the gun. We all wish it would fall in our lap but that's not going to happen, and should not. There are collectors of merit who know its significance. They will look at condition, configuration, originality, and provenence like always.
I don't know how "we decide" anything. I don't know who "we" is and I don't know how the belief of any person can influence the facts of the order and the Charles Parker letter.
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 09:56 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:18 pm |
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| Wilbur F. Parker wrote the letter to the owner. Bruce, thank you for explaining "drop shipping". Now maybe I can explain "tongue in cheek". Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:30 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:32 pm |
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Thanks Bill, I get confused about the Parker management chronology. I remember seeing a copy of the letter in TPS and discussion about the gun and the fanciful Czar gun reproduction in TPS. I think we are all disappointed that the real gun is not as fancy as the gun that has been shown around, but any A-1S is a real prize and this gun has been a long time in searching and is itself a real prize. I hope we don't see the last of it. Somebody will get quite a piece of Parker history.
And thanks Bill, sometimes its hard for any of us to see the smile of the writer and nuances are sometimes difficult to discern for those of us for whom English is a second language...
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:36 pm by Bruce Day
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Kevin Finnerty
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:33 pm |
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| Well, now that the cat's out of the bag.... Anyone hazzard a guess as to the potential hammer price? ....Better yet- lookin' like an interesting betting game!!
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 10:44 pm |
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| That would be a very speculative w/a guess. What did the Wah King Thom gun go for? Galazan has a couple A-1s on his website. Thats a good place to start. Again, condition, configuration, orginality, and provenence.
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