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Don Kaas
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:32 am |
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| While it certainly has deep French associations, actually, the "fleur-de-lis" was neither the symbol of Revolutionary France nor the Empire but a motif of the device of the French royal family. A proper "sans-culotte" would have been mortified to wear such a symbol of the "ancien regime". By the time this gun was ordered, democratic France and autocratic Russia had been members of the Entente Cordiale for 10 years. These allies were both supremely confident of their military prowess, unduly so as it turned out, especially for Russia. It was, of course, this alliance that led directly to the catastrophe of August 1914. Last edited on Tue Dec 19th, 2006 12:03 pm by Don Kaas
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John Davis
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 05:17 pm |
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Admittedly the "fleur-de-lis" was not a symbol of the revolution nor the Empire. Although it was considered for Napoleons imperial coat of arms, he chose the eagle instead. But French is French. And the question remains, why would the Czar of Russia want a gun engraved with the symbol of French royalty?
The Entente Cordiale, by the way, was a formal agreement between England and France. The Franco-Russian Alliance was signed in 1891. It, along with Anglo-Russian Entente and the Entente Cordiale formed the Triple Entente between England, France and Russia.
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 06:38 pm |
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| Correct John, the Entente Cordiale was between Britain and France and along with the Russo-French alliance later turning into the Triple Entente. My memory faded-entente-wise. (Having lectured on WWI, I should not have made that error) The fact remains that any connection to Czar Nicholas II based on either the Parker Bros. letter to the owner or the Meriden is a connection based on hearsay but clearly Mr. Parker believed the story. Whether Col. Tarnovsky really was purchasing a gift for his Czar on his behalf or that of his regiment or merely dropping the name in Meriden to get a nice gun for himself is anybody's guess. Some of our Russian friends on the other BBS seem skeptical based on the social dynamics and etiquette of the St. Petersburg court alone. Also in 1914, it would have been quite possible to ship a box to Europe on a neutral American vessel certainly to the Czar of all the Russias. the presence or lack thereof of a fleur-de-lis is likely more a stock maker's statement rather than a political one. But, you never know...
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King Brown
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 09:00 pm |
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I'm a mouse watching comments on both sites and as to hammer price---which is not value in my book--- my guess is that it may be surprisingly low. I don't get the sense that anyone is drooling at the mouth. So, the backwoods Canadian says less than $100,000.
I don't know whether it's relevant because of different seasons but up here we're being swarmed by ducks and geese, particularly blacks. I haven't seen anything like it in my life, certainly not since I've been back home for 40 years. The weather is relatively warm 9C but going down to -8C tomorow.
I've been gunning every morning.
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 10:19 pm |
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Been thinking about this whole FDL/French connection.
I've got another angle on it which probably makes it a moot point.
The Czar was a big fan of the Boy Scouts. He recieved Lord Baden-Powell in 1909 to discuss starting Scouting in Russia. Then actually commissioned one of his officers to be the head of it. His son Alexia was made the first Scout in Russia and they had a Troop right there at the palace.
Here's a picture of the original 1909 Russian Scout symbol.
I doubt they'd have designed it this way if he'd had anything against the FDL.
Destry
P.S. To King: Sounds like I came a little too early.Last edited on Tue Dec 19th, 2006 10:20 pm by Destry Hoffard
____________________
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C Roger Giles
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 10:30 pm |
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King; is the season still open or has the Canadian DNR managed to get the season out of sync with the big migration as they (DNR) have down stream from you in Ohio?
Roger Coger
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King Brown
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:38 pm |
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The season for ducks and geese ends here December 31. If the water remains open, as it has until now, we wonder if the geese will even bother going south. Today we set up in the "wrong" field next to our harbour and while crawling along the shore to get a shot about a hundred or so raised and settled in the water 100 metres from shore. They watched us crawl. Five minutes later they rose and flew back over our heads into the field. Those we we were stalking remained in the field. There was a little knoll in the field that provided cover to allow us to get within 30 yards. My buddy killed a monster goose, the first in the air. I had my limit. We doubt these geese were hunted this year.
As for out of synch with migrations, I don't know. I have always felt that the season starts too early, in October. The blackflies are still around. The birds have pinfeathers. I'm cynical about all this, wondering if the season is to benefit college boys returning to school or sportsmen who expect to shoot so their guns fit in their shirtsleeves. The gunning is the best I've seen since coming home from where the streets are paved with gold 40 years ago but exceptionally good now with a week or so to go. I think the season should be from the third week of October to the third week of January.
I have no idea, however. how this would affect the birds' breeding or sportsmen's opportunities to the south. Last edited on Wed Dec 20th, 2006 12:14 am by King Brown
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 12:48 pm |
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Tom Neely wrote: I just visted Julia's website and noted that he had an estimated value on this gun at $225,000 to $350,000. I think this is very wishful thinking!!! We'll see what the market places on it in a few months. If it goes the way of the Fleischmann A-1S, it will be available again at auction REAL soon! KBM
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 01:40 pm |
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King Brown wrote: The season for ducks and geese ends here December 31. If the water remains open, as it has until now, we wonder if the geese will even bother going south. Today we set up in the "wrong" field next to our harbour and while crawling along the shore to get a shot about a hundred or so raised and settled in the water 100 metres from shore. They watched us crawl. Five minutes later they rose and flew back over our heads into the field.
Perhaps a Nova Scotia Tolling dog may have been a benefit to you there.
Dean
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King Brown
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 05:48 pm |
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Definitely would have worked, Dean. Maybe even if I had taken my Lab, throwing sticks along the shore. In camouflage colours with face masks, on all fours, we must have looked like barnyard animals. We think the geese just arrived from parts north and hadn't been hunted at all.
I have tolled bluebills and blacks with my Labs, keeping hidden and throwing a stick to retrieve. Once, strolling with gun at the end of a finger of cleared land jutting 300 metres into a lake, I sat down and began throwing a piece of driftwood to toll 150-plus bluebills about 350 metres away. Worked like a charm.
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David Hamilton
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:40 pm |
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| Looks like we will have a late season down on the Rappahannock! Let you know after the new year. David
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Roger Whitfield
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 01:00 am |
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I hear lots of talk about the Czars gun being an A-1 Special, Parker #168304 is shown in the serialization book as a AAHE grade . Making this grim discovery went a long way toward changing my mind about placing a bid since I had my heart set on an A-1 Special... ...RW
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 01:35 am |
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| Roger, I'm sure you're pulling our legs, but it really is an A-1.
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Ed Arrington
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 02:18 am |
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PREDICTION:
Vladmir Putin will come in towards the end of the auction along with $450,000 in new found "Oil stocks"; buying the Czar's Parker for "The people of the Mother Land". Vodka will flow in the streets of St. Petersburg for one week. Later the Russian President will be photograghed by Shooting Sportsman magazine and TDGJ with President Bush ,on the "back forty" at the Crawford quail grounds. Two months after the sale, oil goes to $200 a barrel (Bet on the gun).
Double Gun Regards
____________________
"He was a mighty Hunter before the Lord"
Genesis 10:9
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Roger Whitfield
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 12:44 pm |
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Bill Murphy wrote: Roger, I'm sure you're pulling our legs, but it really is an A-1. Bill, No kidding on this one check the serialization book grade W-7. On another interesting note if you compare this gun to a known A-1 Special the receiver appears to have 2 "beads" behind the breech balls with the other 2 appearing to have been carved from the breech balls. Typically an A-1 Special has three beads all converging near the bottom of the standing breech. Compare the engraving of the side panels of the Julia gun to the AAHE on pg. 31 of the serialization book, then look at the engraving of the A-1 Specials on page 32. Hey besides how many A-1 Special Parkers were in Russia to compare to. I think the Parker boys almost slipped it to the Czar on this one. Anyone on here with enough clout to get the folks at the auction house to furnish a picture of the watertable?.......RW
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Roger Whitfield
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 01:34 pm |
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Ed Arrington wrote: PREDICTION:
Vladmir Putin will come in towards the end of the auction along with $450,000 in new found "Oil stocks"; buying the Czar's Parker for "The people of the Mother Land". Vodka will flow in the streets of St. Petersburg for one week. Later the Russian President will be photograghed by Shooting Sportsman magazine and TDGJ with President Bush ,on the "back forty" at the Crawford quail grounds. Two months after the sale, oil goes to $200 a barrel (Bet on the gun).
Double Gun Regards
Ed, You must have some connections up there in Talahassee to get news like this before it hits the wire. As a sidenote I just heard that the good barrister Mr. Whittington wishes to attend the shoot since "trick shot" Cheney will be in court and won't be able to attend... ...RW
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John Davis
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 01:54 pm |
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| Grades in the serialization book were determined based on price. The gun is listed as a AAHE in the serialization book presumably because of the discounted price. This gun is hard to pigeon hole into a specific grade because it was a special order. The hang tag states "Quality: Whitworth, Spec."
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 02:27 pm |
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| As John mentioned, the gun is posted in the Serialization Book from information taken from the Order Book, the pertinent Stock Book not being available. There are very few grades mentioned in the Order Books. Price and steel type is the only method of determining actual grade. The authors admitted that the Serialization Book information is presumed to be incorrect, the gun actually being an A-1 Special. I have not been able to find how you guys are getting good pictures from the Julia site. Help me on this if you would. Mullins et al claimed to have had some difficulty determining which gun in the "archives" research material was the real Czar's gun. When the 1998 research team first turned the page in the order book and saw gun #168,304, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that this was it.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 02:39 pm |
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| Roger, there are A-1 Specials with four ribs, there are those with three, two, and one rib at the balls. There are A-1 Specials with barely any rib at all. There are AAHE Grades also with one, two, and three ribs. The perforated top lever is another clue. There aren't many AAH Grade guns out there with that feature. I'm going with Bill Mullins and his crew. I think it's an A-1 Special. Get your checkbook warmed up.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 03:19 pm |
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| From the time of the Pine Cone catalogs, where the A-1 was in the $500 neighborhood, to the 1915 Flying Ducks catalog, which was probably in publication at the time of the order book entry for the Czar's Gun, the A-1 was reduced in price to $400 with ejectors with no mention of its availability without ejectors. The AAHE had been reduced to $325 with ejectors. The Czar's gun was $375.00 with probably the last entry for $18.75 surcharge for ejectors. In my opinion and in the opinion of the authors, the price reduction was in effect at the time of the Czar's Gun order and it was an A-1. The $375.00 base non ejector price doesn't fit in with any AA grade price posting in any catalog in my collection. The big price reduction was short lived because one of the later Flying Ducks catalogs has an inked in price change to add $25.00 back in to the reduced prices. Even this inked in price increase doesn't bring the AA reduced prices anywhere near the $375.00 base price of the Czar's Gun. I just recently read the authors' explanation of how they arrived at the A-1 grading. It was not new information, having been explained some time ago. I'm just repeating what they said and backing it up with my own catalog and order book research. Good luck in the bidding, Roger.
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