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James Williams
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 06:45 am |
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OK, I'm going to try something new this year - Parkerizing a gobbler. I am a turkey-hunting nut and as a kid longed for the day when I could afford a 3-in. Magnum to reach out and touch 'em. Now, after using a 3-in. 11-87 for years, I'm interested in going the other way and using my #2 Frame Trojan with 28" barrels choked Mod and Full. I certainly won't use 2-3/4 magnum shells, but am trying to decide what is the best load I can use without damaging the gun. I am considering the Winchester "high brass" Super-X Heavy Game Load (3-3/4 Dr., 1-1/4 oz. #4s) but I'm still a little squeamish about whether the gun can handle the load. It still has the standard circa 1915 shorter chambers (2-5/8?) but according to the DGJ articles by Bell this should not be the limiting factor. Does anyone have any experience using a load this heavy in a 2-frame gun? Thanks.
JamesH
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 07:25 am |
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I've shot a bunch of the Remington equivalent "Heavy Game Load" in my #2 frame DHE and never had a bit of trouble.
With no more shooting than a person does turkey hunting I wouldn't be afraid to shoot about anything. Three or four shots to pattern the gun and one shot or maybe two to kill the turkey isn't going to do the old girl any damage.
Destry
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 12:26 pm |
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| I would use the short magnums if they patterned well. The gun isn't going to blow up. Just don't shoot a bunch of them. My PHE 1 1/2 frame hasn't shot anything but 1 1/4 ounces at a time except at last year's Parker-L.C.Smith shoot when I went back to the 7/8 ounce loads that I prefer. I don't shoot a lot of the 1 1/4 loads through it, but a couple or a few hundred a year at pigeons has not done it any harm. If you have some time, I'll tell you about this gun and its performance as a backup gun at a recent preserve shoot!
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 12:27 pm |
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| By the way, all late factory 3" magnum Parkers I have seen were built on 1 1/2 frames.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 02:28 pm |
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If I may add my $.02 to the subject of Parkers and gobblers, the object of the game is pattern density sufficient to bust bones in the head and neck. As we all know, we don't try to make "body-shots" on turkeys as this type of shooting in turkey-hunting usually means a lost (but crippled) bird. They are powerful runners and with pellets not often penetrating through feathers, heavy breast muscles, and the skeletal structure to reach the vital organs ( which still would not necessarily anchor the big birds) head-shots are certainly preferred. So, pattern density coupled with tight chokes is the answer, not necessarily magnum or heavy loads. I wouldn't go any smaller than #6 shot and probably no larger than #4 in a standard pheasant load. More than that really isn't necessary. Using larger shot sacrifices pattern density so, unless your Parker is choked extra full, I would stick to the #6 loads. Believe me, they're very effective! I have taken several turkeys with head-shots (all with an 1898 DH 12ga choked full/full, one shot each) and these loads do anchor them. As long as you don't try to reach out too far, you'll be fine with them.
Good Hunting!... Dean
Last edited on Mon Feb 28th, 2005 02:39 pm by Dean Romig
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 02:52 pm |
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| We should all reread the great article in Double Gun Journal that describes PGCA member and research committee member Dr. Dave Rozier's experience shooting a turkey with every gauge of Parker from .410 to 10. Someone needs to lend or sell Dave an eightbore to extend his record. For those of you who have never met Dr. Dave, I might mention that a verbal account of the feat would be much preferred to the Double Gun Journal version. Bill Murphy
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 08:42 pm |
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Jeez Bill, was there anything of that poor bird left to eat??
*wink*
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 08:50 pm |
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| Let's see if I get this right?? Maybe I'd better read my buddy Dave's article one more time!
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Fred Preston
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 09:36 pm |
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Bill, Post an anon. on us about how the big 36" eight is good for a twofer on a pair of fighting toms.
Fred
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 10:28 pm |
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| Well, the truth is that Dave has his personal turkeys trained so well that they always get shot in twos! I think his favorite stands straddle the state line so he is not encumbered by the bag limit of only one state. Don't let Destry get wind of this system.
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James Williams
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 11:16 pm |
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Dean,
Is your 1898 DH a Damascus or Titanic, or ??? barrelled gun? I can appreciate your preference for #6 shot as many hunters do, but I have had poor experience with them. I have always done better with #4s and my preference for my 3 in. 11-87 is #5 Winchester Supreme XX copper plated. I have almost a case of pheasant loads from Kent @ 3-1/4 x 1-1/4 #6 and that is my back-up load if the #4s don't pan out. I am not concerned about the 1-1/4 oz. of shot since I have shot quite a few of these in two of my Parkers, but the Super X I am interested in now has 3-3/4 Drams (1/2 Dram more than the Kents) and that was my reason for concern. If no one sees any cause for concern, I will pattern the 3-3/4 x 1-1/4 Super Xs tomorrow.
Dean, even with a 3 in. magnum and extra-full, extended Turkey Choke tube in my 11-87 I still limit myself to 40 yds. and under. I figure if you can't call them in closer than that, you haven't earned them. What do you consider to be your effective range with your Parker and tell me again what brand and load you are using, if you don't mind. Thanks.
JamesH
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Asa Kelley
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Posted: Mon Feb 28th, 2005 11:17 pm |
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| I shot my first spring gobbler at 26 yards with my 1929 #2 frame 30" mod and full Trojan. I had the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4 and used a Winchester 2 3/4 Supreme XX Turkey load of 1 5/8 oz. of 5's. He dropped. I have a 1907 1 1/2 frame VH with 2 5/8 chambers and have been shooting 2 3/4 field loads with no noticeable increase in recoil and the hulls seem to be opening completely. I am debating the value of lengthening the chambers after reading Sherman Bell's articles. The VH is IC and Full so I may try to kill one with it this Spring.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Mar 1st, 2005 02:22 am |
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James
The old girl is a #2 frame with uncut 30" full/full Titanic Steel barrels and according to my PGCA factory letter were both patterned at 250 pellets. The chamber length is original at 2 9/16" and I shoot 2 3/4" without hesitation. At your request I just took out a half-empty box of the loads I use for turkeys and find that I was wrong in my earlier post stating that they were "standard pheasant loads" but that they are actually Winchester Super-X Heavy Game Loads with 3 1/4 dr.eq. and 1 1/8 oz. of #6 shot... well, I was right about the shot size anyhow. But, with the way this gun patterns, I wouldn't hesitate to use a lighter load (of propellant anyhow) and feel just as confident.
I limit myself to about 40 yds on anything I shoot with a scatter-gun and certainly closer is better with turkeys. The big longbeard I killed in Vermont's 2002 spring turkey season was just about 40 yards out when I centered the bead at the top of his head. He went down hard but continued to flap (probably just reflexive) but I knew he would not get up. He had 23 pellet holes in his head and neck- two in the brain and seven shattered his neck vertabrae- he wasn't goin' anywhere! Oh, and by the way, there were no holes in his breast meat or anywhere else in his body for that matter.
My cousin Tim, out in Jefferson Ohio uses a pump-gun with extra-heavy magnums and #6 shot through a super-tight turkey choke. He took a gobbler a couple of years ago at an honest 56 yards and that bird had 38 pellet holes in the head and neck... impressive, but I don't think we need to abuse our shoulders, our vision and our hearing that badly for the rest of the day.
I still believe that the job can be done quite handily with lighter loads using the right pattern, a sure aim and sensible yardage. And I pick my shots too. I never shoot at a running turkey. Yes, you must be able to call them in close enough (or be lucky in having them come close on their own) or, like you say, you just haven't earned them. And if you don't become at least pretty good at calling them, you're cheating yourself out of the most exciting part of the hunt.
Best, Dean
Last edited on Tue Mar 1st, 2005 02:26 am by Dean Romig
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James Williams
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Posted: Tue Mar 1st, 2005 05:23 am |
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Dean,
I called up my first turkey when I was 13 and I've been hooked ever since. I grew up here in Alabama where we have a 6 week Spring season and a 6 bird limit per season. All I ever had to do to go hunting was walk out the back door and into the woods. I'm 38 now - I just realized this is my 25th season of turkey madness. These days my greatest thrill comes not from killing turkeys myself, but from calling up one for someone who has never killed one. As you are familiar, the extreme excitement that comes from being within a few yards of an animal with sight and hearing acuity many times greater than yours, and trying to get yourself and gun into position for a shot without being seen or heard at such close range, and then you don't have a clear shot and his head is behind a sapling for an eternity...well, it is sensory overload for most of these first-timers and if they are successful I get a real kick out of watching them try to carry their prize back to the truck on wobbly legs with their whole body still trembling from the adrenaline. This year I thought I might get back to some shooting of my own, but with a nostalgic twist (i.e. Parker gun).
Anyway, thanks for answering my questions. Your load is identical to the Kents I pheasant hunted with this year (3-1/4 x 1-1/4 #6). I chronographed them @ around 1180fps avg. The Super X load I intend to use in the Trojan is a little more stout with 3-3/4 Drams behind the same shot load (except #4s). The gun has 26 in. barrels and measured chokes of Mod and Full. I intend to shoot left barrel first, and only use the Mod. barrel for a back-up shot. Everyone seems to agree that the extra powder charge should be safe, so I plan to pattern the load tomorrow. Thanks again.
JamesH
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Mar 1st, 2005 04:10 pm |
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James,
I've only been hunting turkeys for about six years and find it a lot more exciting than still-hunting white-tails in the snow. I think it is the actual interaction between the hunter and the quarry that makes it so different- so special. The turkey hunter is not just an intruder into the domain of the prey but actually becomes an integral part of that domain communicating on some ancient, basic level understood by a biological instinct, not by intellect.
Though I kill the quarry, I still believe that in some primitive way I have been able to "count coup", to take his spirit with me to a safe place even after his death. That safe place is in my memory of the hunt and of the worthy trophy.
To use an old, revered Parker adds yet another dimension to the hunt. To do it the way the old gents did it way back then almost puts us into another place- another time. You won't be disappointed and you may never go back to that modern gun. Please tell us about your upcoming springtime turkey hunt. I am very eager to know your your impressions.
Good Hunting!
Dean
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Long Range1
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Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 12:34 am |
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JamesH asked, "does anyone have any experience with heavy loads in a 2 Frame parker??"
In 1961 I was fresh out of the army, newly married, and had just purchased my first Parker #165296. A VH #2 frame with 30" barrels, F/F chokes, Miller SSt, short chambers, and a broken straight grip stock. #165296 weighed in at an even 8-lbs and cost $135.00. I sent the Parker off to Simmons gun repair in Kansas with instructions to pin repair the stock, and cut the chambers to a 3" length. Gun was returned with three steel pins in the stock, and as requested, the chambers were now 3" in length. No notes, No warnings, just a thank you for the business.
I then bought two 10-box cases of Remington 1-5/8 oz 3" magnum ammo at a local gun show. I shot all 20 boxes of the 3" shells in this Parker, and hand loaded the hulls a couple of times on a Lachmiller C tool with shotgun dies. I also purchased a case of 3" 1-7/8 Federal Premiums that had considerable recoil, but the empties were good for hand loading. I came to the conclusion that a 1-1/2 oz load in the 3" case with AL 7 or Winchester 540 was most effective for the shooting I was doing, and then changed the shot size accordingly to fit whatever hunting opportunities came my way. The Parker with it's Miller trigger digested everything I put through it, and this went on until the 1970s. Afterwards a couple of other Parker's came to live at my house along with various other double guns, so old Parker #165296 got a little rest. This was short lived for CSL and his brother PML were now old enough to shoot. Our hunting areas were close to town where there was plenty of Pheasants, and we had a 110 day Waterfowl season. You could always tell when CSL skipped school to catch the early morning Goose flight, mud all over his Jeep, garage full of dead birds, and Chris trying to catch up on the normal days happenings. This was VH #165296 finest hour, as it hooked two young gunners on Parker shotguns forever, and survived the many long days of hunting. All the loads the boys shot were 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 in a 2-3/4 Double AA case (Hand-load) 37 Gr. of Win. 571, and the red Win wad. Boys grew up, went off to college, and old Parker #165296 was retired to the rear of the gun safe for a much needed rest.
By the early 90's Eastern educated Fish and Wildlife folks, along with our local state game wardens were making it difficult to shoot Waterfowl with lead shot here in the west. This fine old gentleman then made a good buy on a large quantity of Bismuth 3" ammo, and once again retrieved Old Parker #165296 from the back of the gun safe. Upon inspection I found it needed a new wear plate indicated by the top lever being slightly left of 6-O'Clock. Sent the gun off to Keith Kearcher with instructions to repair wear plate, and check the wall thickness in the forcing cones and chambers. Keith advised that some "dizzy fool" had put 3" chambers in this gun, but it still had .125 wall thickness in the forcing cones and he felt it would be safe to shoot light loads. After receiving the Parker back from Keith with a clean bill of health, Yes, you guessed it!, ALL $400.00 worth of 3" bismuth went right down those old Vulcan steel barrels. Shot the damn stuff pretty good too. So JamesH, this is my experience with 2 frame Parker #165296. I also have VHE 34" No safety live bird gun #163747 on a #2 frame, and shoot 1-3/8 and 1-1/4 in this gun all the time with no ill effects. Have VHE Skeet gun #237692 1-1/2 frame with very thin barrels, which also gets a 1-3/8 lead load on occasion. This is my story, and I am sure that Kevin McCormick was correct when he said that a 2 frame Parker is a damn stout gun!
Cheers, DCL Last edited on Mon Mar 21st, 2005 05:25 am by Long Range1
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 12:53 am |
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Mr. Lien,
Glad to see you post, I've heard a lot about you from Chris in email we've exchanged. Some of it even good, hard to believe as that may be.
I'm definitely with you on the shooting of heavy loads through heavy guns. They can take it, they're made to be used. Back in my late teens I had a 10 gauge hammer Parker with damascus barrels that I shot 3 1/2 shells through and I've still got both eyes and all my fingers.
Would I tell somebody else to do this? Hell no! But that gun had breeches like a cannon. I don't think a stick of dynamite would have blown it up. Plus I was young and fearless at the time, that helps I think. *wink*
That being said, your story illustrates the facts better than anything I've read on the subject. If a #2 frame can take having the chambers reamed and years of hard shooting (even with a pinned stock) then any #2 frame in decent condition can do the same.
Regards,
Destry
P.S. I'm envious of that 34 inch live bird gun. That's one configuration I've got on my list of Parkers to own and it's a short list.
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James Williams
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Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 01:41 am |
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Went to the homestead farm today along with the Trojan and the Super X 3-3/4 x 1-1/4 #4s. Shot a few paper targets at 35 yds. and was pleased with the results. No problems whatsoever. Thank you to all the good folks who reassured me not to worry. I have in my possession a Savage-era Fox Model B 12 ga. given to me by the same fine gentleman who gave me the Trojan. The Fox has a "walnut" bulge in the left barrel about 4-1/2 inches from the breech. When he gave it to me he smiled sheepishly and mumbled something about putting "one too many 2-3/4" magnum shells through it." Everytime I look at that bulge and envision it on one of my Parkers I get nauseated.
I suspect that the same fellow put a fair share of the short magnums through the Trojan as well, but I never confirmed it. He did state that "it'll kill a turkey." The stock was seriously split through the wrist and when I took it off I wound up with five separate pieces of wood. It took me a couple of months, but I got all the pieces back together, reinforced with steel from the inside (nothing showing outside), I re-finished it and re-cut the checkering and it is once again a beautiful gun. It will eventually go back to one of this fine man's grandchildren when they are old enough to appreciate it for what it is. It will give me great pleasure to surprise them with an heirloom that they didn't know existed. No one but myself, the grandfather, and you guys even know about the gun (Psst, don't tell anyone!). I had a great time with it and my 1-1/2 frame VH 12 ga. on pheasants in Kansas this year.
Dean - regarding turkeys and whitetails, I hunted the deer relentlessly for many years and killed my share of trophy bucks but never got the same thrill as calling up an average gobbler (even if I didn't get a shot). I finally gave up deer hunting over ten years ago.
Long Range - I got a REAL KICK (no pun intended) out of your story. I'm still smiling about it as I write this. That sure was fun to read (and educational to boot).
Now, before we kill this thread, I'd like to know if anyone has a load that would be suitable for turkeys in a Damascus gun. I just finished a 2-frame GH 12 with 30" Damascus barrels choked .040 and .042. That should throw a nice tight pattern.
JamesH
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C. Roger Giles
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Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 03:01 am |
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MH, I know of a place about 50 miles south of here that the farmers are getting real made at the turkeys for destroying their crops. They might let us hunt them if we part our hair (oops) just so. I have seen some of the flocks and they are running in the 30 to 40 bird size. Think we should make a plan?
I think Ol' Clunker might enjoy a turkey outting as I keep gertting braver with my reloads that I have been feeding through it.
Last edited on Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 03:07 am by
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Fred Preston
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Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2005 04:07 am |
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About a year ago I posted a couple of posts on how I burst the left barrel on my 1902 #2 frame VH taking a second shot at a departing pheasant at the end of the '03 season. The gun had cut barrels (26") and I thought I could fill out the pattern by using 1&1/2oz mags. When I shot the right barrel, I was suprised at the miss; and, with the second there was a very loud report (and a miss) and I didn't realize the barrel had burst an inch ahead of the forend tip till I broke the gun to reload (I still have all digits on my left hand). I don't believe there was an obstruction as the mishap came after it was loaded for the first time of the day and I usually check the bore before first loading. It was the first time I had used those loads in that gun. The action had not been bothered and was as tight and right as ever. I sent the gun to Kirk Merrington and he sleeved in new tubes for me and it's been shooting right ever since. I believe Bill Murphy checked with Kirk as to the location of the burst and the wall thickness at that point. The old barrel may have been honed out. I know Bill is a firm believer in measuring wall thickness on old guns; and, I wish I had.
As to turkey loads in a damascus, I used 1&1/4oz over an equal measure of FFG in my 1878 10ga plain twist, full & fuller, to take a tom at 28-30 yards 2 years ago; and, I plan on using it again next month.
Fred
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