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Jeff Mulliken
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 02:32 pm |
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I'd like to start a string about things learned about Parker stocks while working on them. I'll kick it off with two things to ponder.
1) 100 year old wood can grow. If you soak a stock in acetone for 5 days then denatured alcohol for 5 days (the "Wonko the Sane" process) to remove old finish and oil from the wood, a stock can swell a ton. I am working on one now that after a week of drying is still proud of the buttplate by about a 16th all around and is much tighter on the action than before the soak. You need to give it at least 10 days in a warm dry environment for the solvents to cook off and even then it may be substantially larger than before you started.
2) some hack gunsmiths shave off some wood in the stock head to allow them to remove the stock without driving out the sear pins. Before driving out the sears take a close look and see if you can remove the stock by pivoting it. Don't force it as the ends of the sears that the triggers bear on look hearty but are easily bent.
Jeff
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C. Roger Giles
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 05:04 pm |
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The thing I will comment on is the nature of the expansion of wood. First it will grow very little long ways if at all but, it sure makes up for lack of elongating with it ability to swell cross ways to the grain. Some of the better grade guns have better wood ie crotch and burl woods which have all togather different characteristics as you have no clue as to how they will expand/grow. There grain is so tight it has little ability to absorb moisture and oils. The finish really lays right on top and is not deeply penetrated into the wood but does stick very well.
Jeff, to make a comment on you stocks growth situation is to be extra patient and wait it out and see how much the shrinkage is before you trim anything off. I belive you will have a fair amount of shrinkage but not to the extent that it will return to it's former dimentions. In the process of working with woods (mostly hard type) it is much easier to swell it than shrink it, period. Let the stock sit in a warm dry place for what you wil feel like was way too long but do it anyway. Two months is the start of being reasonable and lay it on something that will absorb as perhaps somemore old oils will still leach out. Good luck and bring it to the Southern so we can see your great work.
RogerCoger
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 08:48 pm |
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| Jeff has made me feel a lot less guilty about my SC project gun that has been sitting and eliminating solvent for about eight months. All this talk about swelling has given me an idea about acetone soaking. You will see the "new me" in the mens room at the Southern Side by Side.
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Jeff Mulliken
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 08:51 pm |
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Bill,
You'll still have to deal with the "shrinkage factor" as described by Roger. We'll all look better if the weather is warm....
Jeff
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Harry Sanders
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 09:23 pm |
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Murph,
I know your "mens room" post is nothing more than a clever attempt to scare others away so you can get all the good deals. As to the swell factor...be careful if you smoke after...
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 11:03 pm |
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Jeff: I usually scrape stocks, rather than sand. If there is blackening, put the stock in the sun in summer. Warm and wipe, warm and wipe. Remove all metal, and it is possible to drive the oil out in a micro wave oven. With microwaves going at 79.95 these days, it may be a good addition to the shop. Same as sunning - warm a few seconds and wipe.
I have not tried acetone immersion. I usually scrape to bare wood , warm , and watch for oil sweating out of the pores. After a few warmings, I wipe the stock with solvent, or wrap it in wiping rags, and apply solvent to the rags. The trick is to have the stock warm, and the rags and solvent cold. This makes the oil migrate warm to cold.
My test for oil removal is a quick coat of shellac/french polish. If it sticks, the surface is probably OK.
It appears that the end grain of Parker stocks was not sealed. Over oiling of the frame allowed oil to enter the stock while standing in the rack. Darkening of the wrist, or a very deep dark colored stock are indicative of oil penetration.
Best, Austin
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James Williams
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 01:17 am |
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I have used the Acetone/Alcohol soak method (3 days in each solvent) on two different stocks. In both cases, as the stocks dried new cracks developed that "weren't there" before. The question of whether or not they were really there before or not could be debated (i.e. could have been there but not visible) but the fact is that they were VERY MUCH there after drying. Also, the existing cracks became wider. They were all repairable with Acra-Glass, Cyanoacrylate glue, and lots of built up finish coats, but it is disheartening to see. I believe the occurence might be mitigated somewhat by drying the stock a little slower (not out in the hot sun) but have no proof of that theory. In both cases the stocks did not show the new cracks when pulled out of the final solvent (alcohol), but showed up as the stock became dry within a couple days. I don't know if this is a common problem with this method, but for me it has happened 100% of the time (2 of 2). I'd probably try it again next time because it really does a good job of getting the oil removed to the point where it is repairable with modern adhesives, but I'm a little wary of the drying process.
As to how long it should dry after removing from solvents, I think 2 months for a volatile solvent to disperse is unlikely. Many of you may have more experience than I, but my experience is that you will find that penetration of the solvents will not be as deep as the oil over the past 75 years, and as a result, it will evaporate fairly quickly. Perhaps Jeff will be able to tell us more if he compares the fit of the stock repeatedly over the next two months, but I'd be surprised if you see any difference after the first 3 or 4 days. Alcohol and acetone are so volatile that they simply won't hang around long.
Another observation is that most Parker stocks have longitundinal splits in the wrist, whether visible or not, if the gun has been shot much. Some may never become a problem. Many will eventually become loose on the action as the rear tang continues to drive into the wrist like a wedge with each shot. My favorite method is to inlet a steel staple into the head of the stock to repair bad splits. I truly HATE cross-pinned wrists, because there is no reason to mangle the gun like that. Finally, every stock that I refinish gets bedded to the action with Acra-Glass on the vertical bearing surfaces of the stock head. This insures a perfect wood to metal fit and eliminates the concentration of recoil forces on the areas that have the most contact with the metal. In other words, the recoil is evenly distributed along all bearing surfaces. I also make sure to very slightly relieve the wood behind the top tang if necessary (just a tiny bit) to prevent the wedge effect. And as Austin (I believe it was him) said, they weren't sealed in the inletted areas originally, so BY ALL MEANS, make sure you apply a couple of thinned finish coats to these areas if you have one that hasn't been done yet. It could prevent a ton of sad work later on. Don't get carried away, though, or the build up of too much finish will make the action not want to fit properly.
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Jeff Mulliken
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 06:10 am |
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I slow dried the stock in question by keeping a 100 watt lamp on it from a distance of about 18 in. It is just slightly warm. It appears that the wood is stable and not shrinking any more after 2 weeks.
Jeff
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Bob Vilmur
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 08:12 am |
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A few comments on this subject, started by this question: With due respect to Wonko, why the alcohol? Certainly, most older type varnish based finishes come off with acetone with maybe a little scraping and/or brushing in appropriate places. My observation on alcohol is that it evaporates noticeably more slowly than acetone. If that observation is correct ( and I solicit other opinions ), then might that account for longer than anticipated drying periods? But maybe Wonko in his Saneness saw an advantage I haven't learned about - and that is not facetiously meant. Wonko left us his formula several years ago and vanished into the mist. I just can't answer the question. (-Alcohol is, however, a reducer to shellac.)
The guys who do military wood restorations tend to be more aggressive with oil staining than those of us who regularly work on more delicate inletted/checkered areas. They will work with water based cleaners more often, such as Oxy-Clean and Purple Power and can more easily handle the post-drying grain raising tendencies of such cleaners. Often, this cleaning is done over and over using hot sunshine or another heat source to aid in drying.
Heat is the thing that really seems to make oil move in wood. I have never used a microwave and would enjoy in learning more about its use, but I have read of a technique my military stock refinishing role models rave about and that is to first place a stock section in a 5' x 6" section of stove pipe ( the wood section being loosely wrapped in newspapers or paper towels ) and then propelling 135 degree air down that stovepipe. This hot air directed there by a small fan-assisted heater. (One end of the stovepipe is flared to assist in directing the hot air.) Sometimes a meat thermometer is stuck into the pipe to assist in regulating the temperature. This activity raises fire risks and a safe place needs to be used ot carry out this process, along with regular monitoring. -Ditto on the fire risk inherent in the paper unwrapped from the wood after a heating cycle. The military wood refinishers are patient. They report doing this actvity over and over, often wiping the wood down between heating cycles with a detergent, loosely wrapping the wood again in absorbant paper and starting over again. I have not used this method. I pass it along as a method reported by others. So far, I have relied on hot sunlight ( behind the rear window of a car or in the trunk).
A technique I have used and used often after completing stain reduction work, though, is to promptly apply a "spit-coat" of well reduced shellac to the now dried wood. I can still hear my cabinetmaker/stocksmith mentor telling me how the shellac sinks below the wood's surface, dries there and thus forms a good supsurface barrier to future oil seepage.
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Harry Sanders
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 02:23 pm |
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| I could be wrong here but I believe the original Wonko formula called for Acetone then the DENATURED Alcohol. Denatured largely contains Acetone, Isopropyl alcohol, MIK and several other isomers, depending on who made it. You are definately correct on the evap speed of Isopropyl vs Acetone, Acetone is much quicker in evaporation - due I believe (been a while since Freshman Chem)to it's lower vapor pressure. I have tried many things but acetone is the quicest and most readily available at a reasonable cost from a home store. I once used petroleum ether - it was truly the best I've ever used BUT folks warn about Acetone's flammability well the P ether is significantly more flammable and UNSTABLE.
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C. Roger Giles
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 04:22 pm |
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Murph, I use accetone only to remove the residue from plastic wads to clean the barrels of my guns. Your intended use on stubck you refered to will set you up for a horrible case of jock itch. Anyway use rubber gloves for the applcation to prevent a sore trigger finger. The shrinkage coefficent could be devastating in the long and short run.
Be careful...RogerCoger
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Jeff Mulliken
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 12:00 am |
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I may be more conservative than necessary but I worry about drying wood too fast. My 100 watt bulb set up is about as agressive as I am willing to go. I don't think the soak is going to split the wood, but the stresses of drying it too quickly sure could.
Jeff
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 12:47 am |
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Acetone and (methyl/ethyl/propyl) alcohol are very hygroscopic solvents. When these solvents are applied in open air, they absorb and carry atmospheric water vapor into the wood with them. Acetone is a good solvent for most oils, but these alchohols are not.
The evaporation of alchohol or acetone cools the surface of wood, causing water to condense and go into solution as the solvent is applied.
Parker stored well dried wood in the attic before using it. Wood must not only dry, but season, before it is stable. Re wetting processes will always influence dimensions.
I don't think the problems arise from out gassing the solvent - I think they result from wetting and re drying.
Best, Austin
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 12:47 am |
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Acetone and (methyl/ethyl/propyl) alcohol are very hygroscopic solvents. When these solvents are applied in open air, they absorb and carry atmospheric water vapor into the wood with them. Acetone is a good solvent for most oils, but these alchohols are not.
The evaporation of alchohol or acetone cools the surface of wood, causing water to condense and go into solution as the solvent is applied.
Parker stored well dried wood in the attic before using it. Wood must not only dry, but season, before it is stable. Re wetting processes will always influence dimensions.
I don't think the problems arise from out gassing the solvent - I think they result from wetting and re drying.
Best, Austin
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Pete Hiatt
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 01:00 am |
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David Trevalian also uses the microwave oven. Once when talking to him on the phone, he quickly dropped the phone to put out the fire started ;-).
Wonko is still seen on occasion at the Reno show. I haven't used the acetone method. I hear it works, but I also worry about removing the natural oils in the wood. They play an important part in wood stability. Always seal the wood ends when you make a new stock or work on an old stock. It can be glassed or simply cyanoacrylic epoxy. However, don't get the epoxy on the wood exterior as it will not finish to the same color.
I saw a cross bolt system done quite well recently. Wooden dowells were used and then blended into the checkering pattern. You could not see the dowells afterward.
Of course, if the drop is too great, a new stock is the best idea. This seems to be most common in Parkers
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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 01:13 am |
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Another thing learned.
I recently recut checkering in a forend that had a generation worth of oil soaked into the wood. It was extremely hard to chase the old lines as they were worn to near nothing and the wood was so punky that the tool would not cut straight.
I think the right process may have been to spend a couple of weeks trying to drive out the oil soaking or with head etc and then to stabilize the wood with a hard absorbent finish before going after the checkering.
I am not sure what the right finish might be to stabilize the punky areas, oil finishes are just too soft. Maybe one of you could fill me in.
Jeff
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 02:38 am |
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I really think Parker's original shellac and oil is the best. I grew up reading Jack O Conner, and oil finishes can be nice, but the old "French Polish" is handsome, durable and a cinch to repair.
Best, Austin
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C. Roger Giles
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 03:06 am |
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Austin, you are soooo right. French polish is also fairly easy to work with as it forgives mistakes made when applying it. When the finish on your gun stock begins to get thin give it a booster of FP as it is quite simple to go over the present finish. Bottom line, how easy can it be.
RogerCoger
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James Williams
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 04:23 am |
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Jeff,
I haven't tried this personally, but I believe it will work great. My local custom stockmaker/mentor occasionally uses thin Cyanoacrylate glue (Hot Stuff, etc.) very sparingly to lightly soak punky wood to toughen it up for the checkering tools. I don't know how much the oil would interfere with the ability of the CyA to do its thing, but I can tell you that the thin formulations of CyA will soak into raw wood and make it as hard as stone (well, almost). The best thing about this method is that you can carefully apply it, wait a few minutes, and have at it with the checkering because it will be fully cured. Just don't have your eyes or nose over it when it "kicks off"! The fumes will burn your sinuses clean.
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Bob Vilmur
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Posted: Mon Feb 7th, 2005 09:31 am |
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Understand that David Trevalian has used a microwave for oil removal. If there's a few tricks-of-the-trade out there - - and the method works - - shucks, more info would really be interesting and useful. And, heck, maybe we can reduce this whole thing to a little sandpaper, a microwave, some French Polish, and thou . . . . .
Bob Vilmur
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