 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Jerry VanHorn
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 30 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 8th, 2005 11:45 am |
|
| I talked with my friend last night about wet sanding between coats. His words.." When you think you've got it rubbed in...Rub some more " If the prep. was correct, no further sanding is necessary.....We'll see.....Jerry
|
James Williams
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 89 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 04:36 am |
|
Jeff,
"In my experience", yes the Tru-Oil and Permalyn finishes stick to the CyA areas just fine. However, my personal experience is over cracks that were repaired and filled with CyA. I started this discussion stating that I hadn't tried it myself on checkering, but that my mentor (a top-notch custom stockmaker) used this technique when checkering over punky wood. I will probably be speaking with him this week, so I'll try to get more details for you. My experiences lead me to believe that you would never know the difference with respect to adherence of the finish. I have not used finishes other than Tru-Oil and Permalyn (Permalyn is a linseed/urethane blend, Tru-Oil is also a natural oil/synthetic blend but I'm not sure exactly which ones). Another thing to consider is that if you are re-cutting checkering, you will likely cut through most of the CyA except for the points of the diamonds, which is the part you are trying to save with the CyA in the first place. By the way, I like the Permalyn better than the Tru-Oil I started with. It is much easier to get the soft sheen of a Parker instead of the brashy gloss finish of Tru-Oil. I learned with a lot of experimentation how to get the right sheen with Tru-Oil, but it is a little more challenging.
|
Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 10:59 am |
|
James,
What did you do to tone down the gloss and get the "sheen" with Truoil?
Jeff
|
Jerry VanHorn
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 30 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 11:48 am |
|
| I've applied 3 more coats since the wet sanding with 600, and carefully scraped a drip I hadn"t noticed under the PG cap. The pores are filling nicely, and the finish is remarkable compared to an unfired 16 Trojan. I figure 5-6 more, and it will be just right. Experiment is over...Jerry
|
weston croft-temp
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 21st, 2005 |
| Location: | Atlanta |
| Posts: | 160 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 01:22 pm |
|
I'm about 1/2 through with what I expect will be 20 or so Truoil applications on a PH stock. When done I'll knock the gloss off with steel wool just like between coats and then abent mindedly rub it down for hours with good 'ol paper towels while watching tv. Yes, my family finds it very peculiar but the "depth" of even fairly plain wood is remarkable.
What to do with the checkered (checked?) areas? I've taped them over so they are essentially "raw" and I rather like the contrast. Should they be left that way or shough they be touched up with the truoil for protection? I really want to avoid having glossy valleys.
Finally, I have no experience with stock wax. Should it be used afterwards? Does it produce the same gloss finish I'm trying to avoid?
That's a bunch. Thanks,
Weston
|
James Williams
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 89 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 07:24 pm |
|
Jeff,
Re: Tru-Oil and excess gloss. The method that worked best for me is to apply the build-up coats full-strength until I have all the pores filled (sanding with 320 grit b/t coats). When the pores are filled and all I need is the final "look" that I'm after, I apply a coat that has been thinned 50/50 (or even 60/40) with mineral spirits. I apply it very sparingly with a piece of wadded-up panty hose (no lint!) and smooth it out carefully so that there are no "brush" marks. Then, I let it dry at around 75 degrees for 30-45 minutes. It should be nearly dry but still tacky. At this point I take my bare hands and attempt to rub it all off, wiping my hands on a clean cloth to keep them from just spreading the stuff around, and being careful not to transfer lint from the cloth to my hands and on to the stock. I do this until the whole stock has an even sheen with no glossy spots or streaks. The touchy part is deciding when to start rubbing. If you wait too long, the finish is cured too much to respond. Too soon and it may want to streak. If you don't like the look you get, make sure everyting is rubbed out smooth, let it fully cure, then repeat the process. You won't get excessive build-up because the coats are so thin and you are rubbing most of it off.
I finished a VH 20 to a high gloss once (why??)and later decided to go back and try to dull it down. Steel wool or a buffing wheel on Tru-Oil leave the finish dead-flat when I use them (not what I want). This stock had been finished for a year, so I decided to use Birchwood Casey's companion product for Tru-Oil called Stock Sheen And Conditioner. I applied it in small sections and rubbed it like you would for a rubbing compound (which it must contain). It successfully dulled the finish to a sheen, but not dead flat. I was happy with the results, but I still like the first method better. I also wonder if the Stock Sheen might not contain silicone, which I don't like to put on finishes in case I ever need to re-finish later on (the stuff is difficult to get rid of and will cause fish-eyes when new finish is applied).
|
Jerry VanHorn
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 30 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 9th, 2005 08:51 pm |
|
| Guys..I'll probably be banished to EDMland.....But why is everyone trying to reinvent the wheel? Parker Bros. never heard of Tru-Oil. I assumed that the end result was to attain, as close as possible, the finish that was originally used. Thus..Varnish..or a close mix that would afford the easiest and best result. It was just as a help to share a process that I found very closely approximates the original. Tru-Oil has it's place, but it's not on a Parker.
|
James Williams
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 89 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 10th, 2005 12:21 am |
|
Jerry,
I got a kick out of the EDM land comment, and I understand your statement about re-inventing the wheel. Heck, I don't even like Tru-Oil myself, but I was answering the question that I was asked. However, I must disagree with the statement that it doesn't belong on a Parker. If done properly, I defy you to identify it from the original finish. It is just a pain to work with to get it there. I prefer Permalyn, which is a professional product used by lots of custom stockmakers, and is much easier to work with. Here again, it is not the original finish, but can be made to be indistinguishable with proper technique (and with less fuss than Tru-Oil). The purpose of this thread originally was to share experiences and knowledge gained in the act of working with Parker wood, and I think it has been a great thread. People have shared their personal experiences (as have you), which is not to say that anyone has claimed their techniques to be the end-all of techniques. We have simply shared what we have tried, what worked, and what didn't. I'm interested in your mixture, and may give it a try. Had we not started this discussion, many of us would have never learned of your method. On the other hand, if it doesn't work too well in my hands (or someone else's reading the thread) then there have been other alternatives discussed that have worked successfully for others. One thing I've learned in studying and talking with stockmakers - the quest for the perfect finish is a never-ending quest. They are always looking for something easier and better and quicker. Ask a pro what he is using and he will tell you about the product or mixture or process he likes best. Ask him again in five years and you will likely get a different answer!
JamesH
|
Jerry VanHorn
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 30 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 10th, 2005 01:56 am |
|
| James..That was my point. I, too, read with interest all the info and tips on these pages. I've used Tru-oil, and find it way too much trouble for the result. As pointed out, temperature..drying times......a few minutes off and you must remove and start over, etc,etc. I wish you would try the tung/varnish method. As I said before, I was amazed. This method takes 5 minutes in the morning, and 5 at night. Just quit when you get the finish you like. This GH stock only needs about 2 more rubs..Total was about 12. Probably the best part is that it is nearly impossible to mess it up. After the initial sanding prep, nothing but the mix and your hot little hands touches the stock again...Hopefully someone else will give it a try, and either praise it or forever banish it to the L C Smith board.............Enough said..Jerry..
|
Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Thu Feb 10th, 2005 12:45 pm |
|
Other things learned about wood (bottom feeders edition):
If your considering buying a "shooter" Parker that has an ugly recoil pad, (read as Pachmeyer white line).....Before you get out your wallet lay a straight edge along the wood and out over the pad. You may find that the taper of the stock changes abruptly in the last inch of wood, perpendicular to the butt, before you reach the pad, where some cretin with a belt sander sanded in the pad to fit. It may not be obvious to the naked eye, but with a straight edge you can see how much of an issue it will be to correct it.
In order to refit a less obnoxious pad (correctly) you have to sand the stock down to recover the original taper and run it out through the new pad. That is not too big a problem on the sides but you might end up increasing the DAH. And that may be a big problem.
Jeff
|
GUNDOC
Member
|
Posted: Thu Feb 10th, 2005 01:35 pm |
|
| Personal observations on wood finishing, Tru-oil and I don't like each other, same for Lin-speed and I. Have found the best spar varnish in my hands is a Dutch product called "EPIFANES" imported by EPIFANES of North America 1-800-269-0961. It does contain tung oil. Best, in my hands, tung oil-urethane mix- "Pro Custom Oil" from Brownell's. Tung oil, either Formby's or Minwax from Lowes/Home Depot/ Wal-Mart. First and early coats are thinned 50-50 with "real" turpentine. When filling the pores, I air brush on the thinest coat that won't run. Dry in a dust free, humidity controlled drying box for 36-48 hrs. Sand in between, start with 600 grit and work up as the coats build. By the time pores are filled completely, and a lot of that depends on the wood, "English" walnut usually takes fewer coats than "American" black walnut, I have workled up to 1000 grit and the various rubbing compounds. The glossy "Weatherby"/California finish can be achieved using a light touch and a clean rag buffing wheel. Thanks, this is really a great "thread"! Dr. Bill
|
James Williams
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 7th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 89 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 05:39 am |
|
Weston,
Since no one else answered your question, here is my 2 cents: The "dry look" checkering is real popular with the fancy custom-stocked rifle guys, and it is attractive. However most of us use our Parkers in environments where we can't guarantee that they won't be exposed to moisture, dirt, and gun oil. Therefore, I believe in a protective coat of finish over the checkering. I use the finish (in your case Tru-Oil) thinned with mineral spirits 50/50, and use a small artist's detail brush to lay a very light coat in the checkering and borders. I then take a piece of lint-free cloth and lightly blot the checkering to soak up any excess if necessary, then quicky wipe up any overflow from the wood outside the borders while it is still liquid. The thinned finish takes longer to cure so you have a little more time to clean up the excess before it starts to set and stick to the wood. I let this cure, and may even apply a second coat (usually do). You will get a little bit of shine from the finish on the checkering, but it won't be a high gloss. You will probably lose some of the contrast between the (light) raw wood areas where the checkering tools have cut, and the (darker) finished wood outside the borders. The finish will tend to even-out the appearance between checkered and non-checkered areas. The plus side is that it also tends to downplay any imperfect areas in the checkering which really stand out if there is a lot of contrast. With the finish thinned 50/50, I don't think it is quite as glossy as un-cut finish when cured. Also, it won't build-up and fill in the checkering unless you apply a lot of coats, so that shouldn't be a problem.
|
Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 01:11 pm |
|
I also apply a couple coats of thinned finish to the checkering. Done right the thinned finish should not make the checkering shiny. Checkering exposes end grain and that allows the finish to absorb completely which should help keep it from being shiny. (It works with Tung and Linseed, I have never tried that with the glossier stuff)
Contrary to some I prefer to work on checkering before finishing the stock. If you do a complete finish and then checker it will make any "flats" that remain after checkering shiny and painfully obvious. So, I mask the checkering and keep as much finish out as possible, then work in a dilute solution just before finishing the job.
I know that the checkering on the V's was typically not cut deep enough to remove the flats. When I do checkering work on my own guns I prefer to eliminate the flats. I admit that with the checkering LPI on a V grade some of thoise diamonds look more like pyramids. (Destry would insert a "chuckle" here)
As I own and shoot "V" guns with no significant collectable value, I do as I wish, purists be damned. (Destry would insert a "wink" here)
Regards,
Jeff
|
Austin Hogan
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 15th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1600 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 02:48 pm |
|
Quality wood finishes applied between the Civil War and WWII were either "in the wood" (usually amber resin varnish) or "on the wood" (shellac or French Polish). Oil and artificial varnishes replaced amber resin varnishes as time past through this period. A really fine "in the wood" , really in the bamboo , finish is found on Orvis fly rods. Orvis patented or trade marked the "Orvis Impregnated" finish, which was Bakelite varnish, originally used as a electrical insulator, and an industrial finish. Very thin bakelite varnish was successively applied to the bamboo, until no more was absorbed, and the surface remained wet. The rod was oven dried, and the excess finish was buffed off on a wheel. This was easy because the rod is straight, and has no carving or checking. The finish is almost instantly restorable by additional buffing.
There are numerous instructions, in gunsmithing manuals, Jack O'Connor's and Warren Page's articles on how to apply spar varnish to rifle stocks in the same way. This was sometimes used as a seal and filler, with boiled linseed oil applied on top. The "traditional" finish on fine wood was varnish, rubbed with linseed oil and pumice to break the glaze and leave an "eggshell" appearance, that was easily restorable. A gloss coat of varnish was sometimes applied for durability.
A shop order , in the Remington archive, indicates that shellac and oil was the standard finish for Parkers of all grades, until superceded by a Remington order to finish Trojan, Vulcan, and G grade stocks on the Ilion varnish line. Varnish , oil or NO finish were available options, some times found in the Parker Order Books.
An oil and shellac finish can be applied in one day. More important, the drop points and intricate checking patterns of D,C,B, and A Parkers present numerous crevices where thick finishes tend to build up. Thick layer of shellac around a fluer de lis, or in the checking , can be removed in a few seconds with an artist's brush or toothpick dipped in alchohol.
The modern , quick drying oils and synthetic varnishes produce lustrous and durable finishes right out of the can. The main fault of them is that it is difficult to apply a thin even coating on a complex surface, and that it often requires much more time to remove a thick buildup than to apply the finish.
Best, Austin
|
C. Roger Giles
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 03:02 pm |
|
This is getting to be one of the longest threads on the BBS ever and over a simple paint job to a rather small area in relation to a house or barn. This ole boy knows how to finish a stock without all the hoopla that has been put forward on this subject.
Pay attention to Austins remarks and have more time to shoot than to do the hand rubbing with a fine finish on your gun!!!!!!!
RogerCoger
|
weston croft-temp
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 21st, 2005 |
| Location: | Atlanta |
| Posts: | 160 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 04:25 pm |
|
Thanks for the responses re the checking. I will apply a thinned coat for a little protection and uniform appearance.
I found a number of websites that deal with the french polish technique and I think I'd like to experiment with that process to see if I can get the hang of it. Interestingly, none of these sites dealt with gun stocks but rather with musical instruments.
As an aside, having reassembled the stock and receiver last night, I remain awed at the level of precision fit and quality inherent in these mechanical devices of some 115 years of age. It really is a privilege to own one of any grade.
-Weston
|
Austin Hogan
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 15th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1600 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 11th, 2005 10:06 pm |
|
Secret formula for French Polish:
Wash and dry a small condiment bottle ( 4 - 8 - 12 oz ) , one with a long 1 to 1 1/2 inch diameter neck is best, a cylindrical olive bottle is also good.
Pour two inches of Bullseye amber shellac into the bottle.
Pour in an additional eighth to quarter inch of Boiled Linseed Oil
Add a few drops of Japan Drier
Cut a strip of a white Tee Shirt, or similar hardware store wiping rag about four inches wide. Fold the strip along the center and roll a plug that is a tight fit in the bottle neck. Put the plug in the neck and shake the bottle. The shellac will seal itself.
To patch small areas on a French Polish finish stock, invert the sealed bottle for a minute or so, and remove the plug. Rub the wet area of the plug on the area to be repaired until the the repair shines and matches the adjacent finish - usually 10 to 30 seconds. The repair should be dry and hard to the touch. If it is oily, add a little more drier; if it is sticky, re apply the pad and rub a little longer - the feel will tell after a couple of tries.
Wrap a few turns of the rag around a small block or felt pad to do a whole butt.
I just pulled the plug on a mix I made up last winter and tested it on a lifter wrist - worked as well as new.
Best, Austin
|
Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Sat Feb 12th, 2005 02:14 am |
|
Austin, do you do any dressing of the french polish after applying? Rottenstone etc?
If you have any streaks do you alcohol it and start over or can it be wet sanded to take the streaks out and then a very little more french polish on top?
Jeff
|
Austin Hogan
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 15th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1600 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 12th, 2005 03:03 am |
|
Jeff: The beauty of French polish is that the coats actually merge. A second application usually removes streaks. If not a little steel wool may do the job. However , since the application involves application in line with the stock, a few streaks may be visible in the proper light , on even the best applications.
With respect to French Polish on musical instruments, I think the guys names were Stradivari and Guarnieri.
Best, Austin
|
John Hickerson
PGCA Member
|
Posted: Sun Feb 13th, 2005 08:07 pm |
|
You all,
I have a 1902 era 20 ga. VH. Del grego had restocked it but the forend was original with little or no checkering, Jeff was kind enough to rechecker it but was reluctant to put on a French Polish finish because the wood was oil soaker and punky. He did a first class job of checkering and I, with Austin"s help, wiped it down with mineral spirits and then with denatured alochol. When I wiped it down with a white cloth it didn't show any brown stain at all. So I mixed up Austin's French Polish , Shellac, boiled linseed oil and Japan drier. It came out great. Hard as a rock and I dulled it to my liking with steel wool. This made the Poly finish that Del Grego used look bad so I am considering striping it and French Polishing it.
Is it possible to do it with out removing the stock from the action using tape. If not My local gunsmith would take it apart. Even with the previous posts on removing stocks it seems when I take anything apart springs fly out in all directions and I can't tell where they went.
Hick
____________________
HICK
|
Current time is 07:06 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4   |
|
|
|
|
