Originality and collectibility...

[Wild Skies]

What alterations, if any are acceptable to the advanced collector?

For example, let's say there's a high condition grade 3 or better gun available that letters as righteous--except the stock has been bent from its original drop of 3" D@H to a 2 1/2" drop. The gun is obviously no longer "original"...I know what I'd do, but what does the advanced collector do, pass on it or snap it up?

[Bruce Day]

Greg, I don't know if I am an advanced collector, but that drop issue makes no difference to me. The biggest issues to a collector are condition, generally meaning case colors, and original configuration.....no chopped barrels, altered comb or grip stocks unless its a factory change. There are some who want only skeleton butts or dogs head butt plates, no padded butts. I personally prefer a skeleton butt however I can live with a padded butt if the rest of the gun is compelling enough. then of course, the smaller the bore and the higher the grade, the more the interest. I am not a micro bore guy and prefer the 16's and 20's, and even a light 12.

[Kevin McCormack]

When I found out my lovely 1891 Holland & Holland Royal Grade had been re-case colored and barrels reblued about 10 times, I howled, "Oh, No! It isn't 'original'. The driven birds never knew the difference and I'm looking forward to using it enough that it will need an 11th 'refresh."

[todd allen]

A refinish on a fine English gun that has given 100 years or so of service, is not a shock, or unexpected. For whatever reason, the classic American gun market plays by different rules.
During the season, a Holland and Holland Royal is my every day "go to" upland gun. High grade Parkers are more of a special occasion gun.
Of course, special occasions happen!

[Bill Murphy]

I might have one or two Parkers that have been freshened up a bit.

[C grade]

Greg
I don't know if I qualify as a purist,but do not want any changes in the gun since it left the factory. I will consider a modified gun but will discount it depending on the mod. If the stock has been bent to modern demensions the discount would be minor but then the gun has probably been shot more and the loss in condition would be the main consideration. I have some guns with a lot of drop and just put a pad on them and shoot away. JMHO
David

[Bruce Day]

David knows his guns and represents the purist school of thought, and I am generally in that camp also. I like them as they were made.

The comments about English guns are interesting but I thought we were talking about Parkers. However, I do see some fine Brit guns at Flatwater, and just like Parkers, every time the gun is redone, there is some loss of engraving or stock detail. A favourite form of recreation of the Brits seem to be to hone those bores and get them shiny.....well, you sure see a lot with thin barrels. I really liked a little Dickson but those barrels are not thick to begin with and then you take off 005 in a honing and you are down to 020 and I don't want any part of it. Maybe that's the reason you see so many Brit guns that are sleeved.

[Kevin McCormack]

Greg didn't say anything about Parkers, Hollands & Hollands, Boatwrights, Mossburgs, or any other make of gun - the question was what alterations are acceptable to the "advanced" collector.

When a Parker or any other gun is properly redone, a complete refinishing should include both barrel and metalwork; e.g., recut the checkering, repoint the engraving, etc.

The British gun trade hones shotgun bores for a variety of reasons; mostly to repolish after removing pits, minor corrosion, or to restore concentricity. It has nothing to do with being a form of "recreation" - it is a make or break process that largely determines if the gun can be safely put back into service.

Whatever Dickson you were looking at has thin barrel walls as originally built for a very good reason: the gun, like most better English guns, was purpose-built for a customer as to barrel length, weight, stock length. When it left the maker it fit his needs exactly.

You can't visually evalate what a barrel wall's thickness is by looking at it; precise measurement is the key. If it needs .005 (?) taken out of it, it can be safely done if the resulting thickness meets the proofing requirements of the original gun.

Compared to the total volume of British guns on the market today, the incidence of sleeving is a decided minority. Out-of-proof, destroyed barrels, or barrels unsafe to take out that last few thousandths of an inch to put the gun back in proof are major reasons.

By the way, where the hell is Flatwater?

[Bruce Day]

Flatwater is out here in Nebraska. A bunch of good old boys from east coast to Hawaii get together, bring Purdey's, H&H's, Parker's, Colt 1911's, Marlin bolt actions, Dicksons, Fabbris, Mod 12s you know, the usual stuff. Frolic in a corn field, eat hunks of beef, drink whiskey, shoot sporting clays, wear jeans, overalls, ties, Hawaiian shirts, drive pickups and Jags, just farm boys having fun. People shoot each others guns and there will be a line of guys five deep shooting protection. Side bets sometimes occur. We tell Larry Brown to hold it down.

Its a plains kind of thing.

[charlie cleveland]

ive seen one of those single barrels before but they are to much gun for small game... imop.. can any body come to this shootout or is it invite only.... thanks charlie