16 ga

[Michael Kitterman]

Hi all, I still have concerns about 16 ga and chamber length. I have a VH 16 ga made in 1907. Have tried to research the evolution of the 16 ga shell on the internet but have not been able to find much. I measured the barrels last night, from the end of the breech to the start of the forcing cone was 2.5 inches. Have been told there are 2 9/16" and 2 5/8" chambers. So if some one who is knowledgeable with 16 ga could share some advice I would greatly appreciate it.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Michael,

I moved your thread because it has nothing to do with Website and Forum assistance. Rather, your question concerns a Parker gun.

Mark

[King Cobb]

I am not knowledgeable about 16gauges really, but perusing RSTs site, all the 16 ga shells they sell are 2.5" shells. Not definitive info, but a pretty good indication of what shell length to use.

I know on 12s, some shoot 2.5 because they think it is easier on the gun, and some shoot 2.75 saying that it either doesn't effect the pressure, or that Parker Bros made their guns to shoot 2.75 shells in a 2.5 chamber to get a better seal.

Again, hopefully someone more knowledgeable of 16s will come by soon.

[Researcher]

Thankfully I've saved this as a word document and don't have to retype it!!

16-Gauge History lesson --

From the late 1890s until after WW-I, the heaviest 16-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered were 2 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 22 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 ounce of shot. Those loads could be had in the "standard" 2 9/16 inch case or any of the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch cases. So, at least in factory loaded cartridges, the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch 16-gauge shells only benefit was more/better wadding.

In late 1922 or early 1923, Western Cartridge Co. added the 16-gauge to their progressive burning powder loads called Super-X, but unlike the 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge and 1 ounce 20-gauge Super-X loads which were put up in Western's 2 3/4 inch FIELD shells, the 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load was put up in their 2 9/16 inch FIELD shell. When the Lubaloy shot Super-X loads were introduced in July 1929, they were put up in Western's high brass RECORD shell, but the 16-gauge still in a 2 9/16 inch length case.

The 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell really began to get some traction when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge in 1931, chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. While Remington's regular Nitro Express 16-gauge progressive burning powder load was put up in a 2 9/16 inch hull with a load of 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot, for their new 16-gauge autoloaders they introduced the slightly faster Auto-Express with a 3 1/4 drams equiv. charge pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot --







I'm thin on Winchester ammo catalogues, but for sure by 1934, they were offering a similar 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge load.

The 2 3/4 inch Magnum shells with 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge first appear in the December 15, 1954, Western Cartridge Co. catalogues.

Western Cartridge Co. added a 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge to their Super-X offerings for 1938. From 1938 through 1942 they called this 16-gauge 2 3/4 inch Super-X shell "Magnum", even though it was still a 1 1/8 ounce payload. By Western Cartridge Co.'s March 7, 1946, catalogue the term "Magnum" was gone from this 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell. In Western's January 2, 1947, catalogue, the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell was gone from both the chilled shot and the Lubaloy offerings, and their only 2 9/16 inch shells being offered were Xpert. This may have been an oversight, as the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell with chilled shot is back in Western Cartridge Co.'s April 8, 1948, catalogue and price list, and the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X loads remained until their last appearance on Western Cartridge Co.'s January 2, 1962, catalogue and price lists, where it is "available until stocks depleted." By Western Cartridge Co.’s January 2, 1963, catalogue and price lists the new Mark 5 was introduced and all the 16-gauge Super-X offerings are 2 3/4 inch. By the January 2, 1964, Western Cartridge Co. catalogue and price list the 16-gauge 2 9/16 inch Xpert shell is gone as well.

With Parker Bros. policy of holding chambers about 1/8 inch shorter than the paper shell they were intended for, the "standard" Parker Bros. chamber for the "Standard" 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shell of 1907, would have been 2 7/16 inch, probably what you are measuring as 2.5". A gun made for the 2 3/4 inch shells would have a 2 5/8 inch chamber, etc.

[Leighton Stallones]

I think theoretically the chambers were 2 9/16, but they do vary depending on who did the chamber I am guess. I have found that Fiocchis are generally 2 9/16 to 2 5/8, my B&Ps are 2 5/8 and of course Federal are 2 3/4 when fired. I do not believe there is any increase in pressure to be concerned with in shooting the 2 5/8s in a 16 ga Parker chamber. I do shoot some RST 2 1/2s because I like them, but the others fit my purpose just as well. Even my M 21 Win 16 ga has a short chamber and that does not bother me even with the Federals.

[Fishtail]

I'm not a fan of modifying Parkers. Things like stock bending, choke alterations, recoil pad additions, etc. should all be ground for dismissal. But I wish every single steel barreled Parker ever made with chambers less than 2-3/4" would be rounded up by the government, sent to Del Grego's or some other reputable gunsmith, chmabers lengthened to 2-3/4", and returned to the owner.

Why? It would make no difference to the gun at all and it would end the endless stream of chamber length threads and questions.

The next time Obama is in town I think I'll grab my Parker and go talk to him about my idea. I know he'll be tight on time so I'll probably run up to him.

[gman]

I shoot 2 1/2" RST new and low pressure reloads in all my 16s and plan to never look back.

[OH Osthaus]

Originally Posted by greg conomos

The next time Obama is in town I think I'll grab my Parker and go talk to him about my idea. I know he'll be tight on time so I'll probably run up to him.

don't forget to send Mary Bowes your forwarding address

[C.O.B.]

I shoot 2 1/2 inch shells in all my guns regardless of gauge, Damascus or fluid steel. Your gun is over 100 years old and even though the chamber length might take the 2 3/4 length shell why put the 100 year old wood through the recoil? I'm loading 7/8's and 3/4 oz loads in 16 and haven't seen a clay target or a bird properly hit ever notice the difference.

[Bruce Day]

The recoil formula, widely available with calculators on the internet, has three variables:
weight of the ejecta ( Shot, powder, gas, wad)
velocity of the ejecta
weight of the gun

Chamber length and cartridge length are irrelevant to recoil. You want less recoil, reduce the shot load, slow the speed, or start taping on lead weights to the stock.

It's fine to like light loads under the appropriate circumstances and even better to understand what comprises recoil.