Parkers and Pressure ?

[Danny Bell]

Gentlemen,

I'm new to this sight, and really excited to learn all I can about Parker guns.

I'm a retired electrical engineer, so now I pursue my hobbie of 31 years....I build custom Harley-Davidson Choppers. My latest creation will be the main auction event at The Wild Sheep Foundation this Feb. in Reno.

My wife and I are passionate bird hunters and have been fortunate enough to have hunted several points of the globe. We raise our own lines (if one can say that) of Labs and Britts.

Enough conjecture on me... I need educating on Parker shotguns.

I was raised on FN A-5 Brownings and pre-1913 00 grade LC Smiths, but now want 12 and 20 gauge Parkers. At this point in time, the lower to mid grades will suit us fine.

My question is :

Is it recommended that earlier Parkers digest lower pressure loads as do the pre-13 Smiths without concern of developing cracks in stocks and loosened ribs ? I'm refering to fluid steel and not damascus or the like.

Any info will be appreciated,

Regards,

Danny

[Richard Flanders]

Welcome aboard Danny. Be warned that Parkers are a disease with no cure. You'll get all the info you want on this forum. Most of us shoot low pressure in our damascus guns, less than 7000psi in general. For the fluid steel 12ga guns of #2 frame size and larger it seems that they will digest about any hunting load but I think most of us shoot moderate loads. Some fluid steel guns have very stout bbls and seem safe with anything you can stuff in them. Some Damascus guns are the same. One of our guys has a Bernard barreled 12ga that he shoots pretty stout loads in if I hear him correctly. I have an 1883 twist bbl hammer gun with barrels I don't worry about one bit; it digests old duck loads with no complaints, but I don't like to shoot the same loads in my 1-1/2 framed steel bbled VH12. Some barrels have been honed out and are thin. I guess it's a loaded question you have as it really depends upon the stoutness and condition of the barrels. and the rest of the gun. Some Parkers have slim wrists that don't like heavy loads and develop cracks behind the top tang and even break at the wrist as a result. Every gun is a different. When you go to buy one you have to look at it very closely for flaws that will bite you down the road. If you find one you are interested in, take pictures and post them here and get input from this group; if a gun has warts, this crowd will find them and help you out. We all say that the only dumb question is the one not asked so don't be shy.

[J.B. Books]

I read or heard somewhere that pressure is what stresses barrels and recoil is what stresses stocks. Made sense to me. Light loads can still produce a high chamber pressure and recoil is the result of an aged old law of physics; force = mass x acceleration. On fluid steel guns I am more concerned about recoil than chamber pressure. I reload 100% of the shells I shoot in my Parker's. Reloading allows me to control the pressure and recoil. Parker's taught me how effective and deadly light loads can be. Then I learned how pleasant it is to shoot light loads. 3/4 ounce loads in a 20 and 7/8 ounce loads in a 12 crush clay pigeons. Step up to 7/8 in the 20 and 1 to 1 1/8 ounce in a 12 and you are good to go for all but Goose and Turkey. Good luck and good hunting.

PS. I have even watched a member here fold a few geese clean with 7/8 ounce 20ga. They work fine if you are close enough.

[Bruce Day]

Danny, you mentioned "earlier" Parkers without definition.

Parker made no distinction between damascus and fluid steel gun for both working and proof pressures. Parker used damascus barrels until 1927 and from early on, tested both with smokeless powder. If I recall correctly from TPS, the 12ga working pressures were about 11,000psi and the proof about 13,500 until late ( 1930's) when Parker adapted the then industry standard 17,000. All the research done by Sherman Bell and documented in the DGJ prove that black and smokeless pressure curves were substantially the same.

So, yes a person generally should not shoot full pressure loads regularly in a Parker regardless of barrel steel, but as stated, know your gun, the key being barrel wall thickness. Look for at least .025 and many Parkers run .030 to .038, some as much as .045. As an engineer, this is something you can get quite involved in and many here have engineering, machining or other technical backgrounds. In comparision to motorcycles, you know they were designed to run at x max velocity, and some in good shape still do, others maybe you need to back off on the throttle.

PS I shoot heavy duck loads ( 1 1/4oz and 1300fps) on occasion in my old damascus guns, but I know my guns. If you shoot straight and use some choke you generally don't need a heavy load, and don't get me started on these so called pheasant loads at 1 3/8oz and 1400fps that the ammo makers love to sell at $18 per box.

[C.O.B.]

Danny I shoot low pressure loads in all my Parkers which are both Damascuss and Fluid steel. I'm not a big 12ga guy but I have greatly enjoyed shooting 2 1/2 inch light loads in a recently adopted 12ga hammer gun.

I find no difference in the ability to break targets, kill birds with this type of load. It's easier on the gun and the shooter. If your not going to load your own you can do no better than the products offered by RST.

[VH20]

You mentioned that you are a "bird" hunter - that covers a lot of ground. For quail-sized birds, the standard velocity (1200fps) 1-1/8 oz. 12 ga. load (or 7/8 oz. in 20 ga.) should do just fine in a fluid steel Parker in good condition. I hunt with off-the-shelf factory loads like these in both 12 and 20 in my fluid steel Parkers without giving them a second thought. For larger birds like pheasants, the same loads work fine, but finding them in proper shot size (4, 5, or 6) is more difficult. Like Bruce said, the trend is for very hot loads in these offerings. I tend to load my own for this application, although Kent makes a very nice 1-1/4 oz., 1200fps 12 ga. load in these sizes that only develops a little over 8000 psi. I've shot quite a few of these in a 1-1/2 frame 12 and they work very well.

For high-volume clays shooting with the 12s, I load a 7/8 oz., 1200 fps low-pressure load that puts minimal stress and minimizes wear on the gun for years of high-volume shooting, and is very effective on targets. I have put more rounds through a gun in a day on a clays course than I will in an entire season of hunting.

Jim

[Gene Baker]

I am new to the forum, and have an inherited Parker grade 2, hamerless double in 12 ga. with Damascus barrels. It was my FIL's, and I think he said he got it from his own father. It was mfd. in 1905. He said he used Remington Express in it, and I have some of the old rolled crimp shells that came with the gun.

This gun has been hunted quite a bit. There are scratches on the stock, but nothing is broken as far as I can see, and the bore is bright. There appears to be a couple spots of surface rust on the frame. With a dial caliper I get about .063 metal thickness at the muzzle. I don't plan on hunting with it, mostly because I don't want to damage it.

From what has been posted, am I really safe to use ounce loads of smokeless powder in this gun?

Thanks. This is a very interesting place.

Gene Baker

[Labowner]

One ounce loads should be find in your GH. I shoot 1 oz. for trap and 7/8 oz. in skeet with my fluid steel and damascus guns.

Your gun should be fine up to 1 1/4 loads.

[Double Play]

Gene .063 at the muzzle means very little and is more a result of how much choke the gun has more than anything else. To determine if a gun is safe to shoot you should have the wall thickness measured a few inches in front of the chambers. To do this correctly you need a wall thickness gage that most good gunsmiths should have.

[Dean Romig]

Adding to Larry's post, from the muzzles back to nearly 6" is considered to be the length of choke in a Parker of that vintage. Further, the section of barrels from the chambers forward about 10" is the section that receives the highest pressure stresses. The section of barrels between the choke and breech sections mentioned is the section that receives the least amount of stress due to pressure but, as Bruce says, still needs to be at least .025" thick.