Parker factory test loads?

[Bindlestiff]

Thanks Dave, I have been searching the Parker Story for the data Dean eluded to but have yet to find it.

Because of your reply, I now realize the obvious, that an ounce of lead shot of a particular weight has a defined approximate pellet count. And, I already have the count listed in a FAQ table about shot size.

Now, it will be an easy task to do a computer program for the FAQ page to take the information found in a Parker letter and compute the "choke size". I don't know why this was not obvious to me before, this is a real head slap moment for me! Thanks again!

[Drew Hause]

Just as a FYI- Starting in 1907, Hunter Arms catalogs included the following statement:
“All Smith Guns are bored full choke unless otherwise ordered. We can bore a gun as follows using the twelve-gauge gun as a standard distance, forty yards; circle, thirty-inch; shot, Tatham’s chilled No. 7 1/2, one and one-quarter ounces; American Association Measure, 345 pellets to the ounce or 431 to the load.”

Tatham's was the premium shot of that era, and advertised extensively in Sporting Life.

[Bill Murphy]

There were eras where the target was 45 yards from the gun and the circle was a different dimension (OK, I just checked, and it is a 24" circle). Somewhere, Parker Brothers told us how to convert this information into a percentage for 40 yards and a 30 inch circle. We discussed this information on this forum a while back. Also, 12 gauge guns were not only patterned with 1 1/8 ounce loads, but sometimes with 1 1/4 ounce loads.

[Bill Murphy]

I just went into the junk files and found early stock book entries showing some entries for 10 and 12 gauge guns that were patterned at 45 yards in a 24" circle, and 16 gauge guns that were patterned at 30 yards in a 24" circle. Now it is obvious to me that we need to have all this information from the stock books to determine how our guns were patterned and with what size shot and how much of it. Unfortunately, our stock book copies are normally cut off before the pattern information, again, depending on the era. Sometimes, the order book information gives choke or pattern information that adds to any abbreviated stock book information that our researcher may be able to decipher. To add to the confusion, although later patterns shot with 12 gauges were with #7 1/2 shot, these early patterns were shot with #8 shot, even in 10 gauge. We just can't tell the original choke of a gun unless we have more information than is usually available. I have not seen a stock book entry for eight gauge guns, so can't comment on them.

[Autumn Daze]

A couple of other things to consider....Parker would target guns with any load specified by the customer within reason. Also we know the the factory loaded their own shells as the PGCA owns one of the loading machines. Were these machines used for creating proof loads or targeting loads I don't think we know for certain.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Dave, great information. Yes, order books are full of customer requests for weird patterns with weirder ammunition. It would be interesting to see if these weird requests were followed all the way to the stock book entries. Of course, we would need the assistance of the research committee to check this out.

[Pa SxS]

I'm going to add some extra info I found while learning to read the stock books.

Many times the order book will specify how the customer wants the barrels choked. The stock book always recorded patterning information but unfortunately it's at the far right of the page and quite often much of the information is not there, it's cut off.

What I found on the very early S/N guns (1500 to 3900 in stock book # 1) was that both 10 and 12ga guns were patterened with #8 shot, 45yds, and a 18x24 target. I don't know if the target was a rectangle or an oval but all the patterning info that is readable, all used these specs. At about S/N 3950, you start to see 18x24 along with just 24 (with a circle around it.) Shortly there after, all patterning was done for both 10 and 12ga using #8 shot in a 24" circle at 45yards. Years later, it changed to 40 yards in a 30" circle.

Sometimes in the order book the customer will specify what brand of shot to use and also the size. I haven't correlated the order book with the stock book yet.

I'll add more confusion to this topic. In the 1882 catalog, it lists "Comparative Sizes of Drop Shot" table. There were 9 different manufacturers of drop shot listed along with the number of pellets to the ounce. Tatham shot was often used by Parker, they had 399 pellets of #8 shot to the ounce. The range of all manufactures was 365 on the low end to 434 on the high end. Kind of makes figuring out your chokes difficult if you don't know who made the shot. No standards back in those days.

[George M. Purtill Member #28]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

I just went into the junk files and found early stock book entries showing some entries for 10 and 12 gauge guns that were patterned at 45 yards in a 24" circle, and 16 gauge guns that were patterned at 30 yards in a 24" circle. Now it is obvious to me that we need to have all this information from the stock books to determine how our guns were patterned and with what size shot and how much of it. Unfortunately, our stock book copies are normally cut off before the pattern information, again, depending on the era. Sometimes, the order book information gives choke or pattern information that adds to any abbreviated stock book information that our researcher may be able to decipher. To add to the confusion, although later patterns shot with 12 gauges were with #7 1/2 shot, these early patterns were shot with #8 shot, even in 10 gauge. We just can't tell the original choke of a gun unless we have more information than is usually available. I have not seen a stock book entry for eight gauge guns, so can't comment on them.

Bill
have we ever seen an 8 gauge hang tag?
could someone post one?