Parker factory test loads?

[Bindlestiff]

I have been looking over some of my Parker letters today and notice that all the letters which include choke pattern information specifies the number of #8 shot in a 30 inch circle at 40 yards. All very interesting I guess, but it doesn't tell me the choke.

In order to convert these numbers into general choke sizes I need to know the total shot count of the shell they used so I can compute the percentage of shot in the circle. Then I can use the table at http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/ChokeSize.htm to determine what choke it probably is.

So, two questions for anyone that may know the answer.

1. I have letters for both 12 & 16 gauge and they all use #8 shot for the test. Did they use #8 for tests on all the tests and on gauges?
2. Is there any documentation anywhere that lists the brand or type of shell Parker used to test so we might open one of each gauge and get a shot count; or is there any record of what Parker Bros. knew to be the total shot count in their test shells?

[Scott Fox]

I have a letter on a 1898 12 gauge which states 250 pellets of #7 shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards.

[charlie cleveland]

robin somebody posted a letter here at one time saying no 6 s were used at 40 yards...id almost bet they used 1 ounce loads in the 12 ga and 7/8 ounce in the 16 ga...these were the common loads of shells in the respective ga s in those years of the hammer gun..hope you find what loads parker used to proof each gauge this would be interesting especially the 8 ga proof load..i thinkyouve brought up a great question and i hope we finds some answers... charlie

[Dean Romig]

Over the years, or I should say in particular eras of Parker shotgun manufacture, different shot sizes were used in patterning along with different yardages and different diameter circles. This all can be found in The Parker Story.

[Researcher]

The load a gun is targetted with and the proof load are two totally different things.

There are a couple of sets of hang-tags shown on page 520 of The Parker Story. They show that serial number 108998, a 7 pound 10 ounce, 30-inch barrel, 12-gauge, was targetted with a load of 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2 chilled shot, pushed by 40 grains of DuPont powder, putting 325 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards from either barrel. A load of 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2 chilled shot should contain about 431 pellets. 325/431 = 75.4% or pretty damn tight!!

The hang-tag for serial number 211738, a six pound, 26-inch barrel 20-gauge shows the gun made for 2 1/2 inch shells and it was targetted with a load of 2 1/4 drams of Bulk Smokeless Powder pushing 7/8 ounce of #8 chilled shot, putting 100 pellets from the right barrel and 150 pellets from the left barrel in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. A 7/8 ounce load of #8 chilled contains about 358 pellets

[Bindlestiff]

Thanks Dave, I have been searching the Parker Story for the data Dean eluded to but have yet to find it.

Because of your reply, I now realize the obvious, that an ounce of lead shot of a particular weight has a defined approximate pellet count. And, I already have the count listed in a FAQ table about shot size.

Now, it will be an easy task to do a computer program for the FAQ page to take the information found in a Parker letter and compute the "choke size". I don't know why this was not obvious to me before, this is a real head slap moment for me! Thanks again!

[Drew Hause]

Just as a FYI- Starting in 1907, Hunter Arms catalogs included the following statement:
“All Smith Guns are bored full choke unless otherwise ordered. We can bore a gun as follows using the twelve-gauge gun as a standard distance, forty yards; circle, thirty-inch; shot, Tatham’s chilled No. 7 1/2, one and one-quarter ounces; American Association Measure, 345 pellets to the ounce or 431 to the load.”

Tatham's was the premium shot of that era, and advertised extensively in Sporting Life.

[Bill Murphy]

There were eras where the target was 45 yards from the gun and the circle was a different dimension (OK, I just checked, and it is a 24" circle). Somewhere, Parker Brothers told us how to convert this information into a percentage for 40 yards and a 30 inch circle. We discussed this information on this forum a while back. Also, 12 gauge guns were not only patterned with 1 1/8 ounce loads, but sometimes with 1 1/4 ounce loads.

[Bill Murphy]

I just went into the junk files and found early stock book entries showing some entries for 10 and 12 gauge guns that were patterned at 45 yards in a 24" circle, and 16 gauge guns that were patterned at 30 yards in a 24" circle. Now it is obvious to me that we need to have all this information from the stock books to determine how our guns were patterned and with what size shot and how much of it. Unfortunately, our stock book copies are normally cut off before the pattern information, again, depending on the era. Sometimes, the order book information gives choke or pattern information that adds to any abbreviated stock book information that our researcher may be able to decipher. To add to the confusion, although later patterns shot with 12 gauges were with #7 1/2 shot, these early patterns were shot with #8 shot, even in 10 gauge. We just can't tell the original choke of a gun unless we have more information than is usually available. I have not seen a stock book entry for eight gauge guns, so can't comment on them.

[Autumn Daze]

A couple of other things to consider....Parker would target guns with any load specified by the customer within reason. Also we know the the factory loaded their own shells as the PGCA owns one of the loading machines. Were these machines used for creating proof loads or targeting loads I don't think we know for certain.