Sould it be illegal to hunt with 8 gauge?

[Dean Romig]

Honestly, I know little about 8 ga. guns and the kind of pressures they produce or the min. wall thickness required to be considered safe.

[TARNATION !!!]

This thread has become an interesting discussion that touches on laws ethics and morals, as related to killing game. Is conducting oneself in a legal manner also conducting oneself in a moral and ethical manner? Does it depend on whose standards are in play? A philosophical analysis may be in order. Any philosophers out there??? With deference to true academics, I want to make a stab at this.

I think laws are developed for application to the whole of society. To do so, they can become vague and subject to interpretation. Morals and ethics may not have the same broad social application, rather they may refer more to rules and standards of conduct and practice, often developed by a segment of a society for application to and within that segment, e.g. doctors, lawyers, religions and even hunters. To establish moral and ethical codes within a segment of society, there will be debate. That debate may center on values related to some conduct, touching on the rightness or wrongness of certain actions and the goodness or badness of the motives and methods employed to achieve the ends of such actions.

So, let's stick with hunting.

To start, there are segments of society that abhor the thought of killing any animal for human consumption. Those who hold true to those ethical standards will not eat any form of animal derived product. Their sense of what is right and good varies from the vast majority of the human population who do eat animal flesh and other animal derived products. Who is right or wrong or good or bad??

For the rest of the population that does consume animal products, there is a broad based desire that the animals to be consumed are decently treated up to the point of being killed, most often in a slaughter house type of facility.

However, hunters perform the full range of actions required in order to take the animal from natural habitat to dining table. The chase, the kill, the field dressing, the home preparation, the cooking and eating.

So the end, a meat based meal, is the same for the person who relies on others to turn an animal into the product to be consumed, as it is for the hunter.

So with the same end, the motives and methods employed to get there become the subject of debate.

For the general population the motive may be as simple as a meal.

For the hunter, the motive may include the meal, as well as the enjoyment of the time in nature, and the camaraderie of like-minded persons. It may include the enjoyment of interacting with another species to assist in the hunt – our four legged friends.

The next issue is the methods employed, which directly touches on the 8 gauge discussion.

Rightness, wrongness, goodness and badness become the matters of debate that determine the morals and ethics of hunting.

We have to start with the assumption that hunting is good, not bad and that killing an animal for food is right not wrong. We know there are others who disagree; however, at the broad social level, the legality of hunting is not in question. Methods are in question, even amongst hunters and that depends on personally derived sense of what what is right or wrong good or bad.

So let's stick now with the method of killing using an 8 gauge gun. Will it kill, yes. How so? With #7 #6 #5 #4 #2 etc shot. This is the same shot used in any shotgun. Does the 8 gauge deploy more pellets than 10 12 gauge etc? It can but some modern loads for smaller gauges can actually deploy more pellets.

Do more airborne pellets increase the probability of a clean kill? Likely.

So, does the question ultimately become: Is there a maximum number of pellets deployed by a gun, beyond which, it is clearly wrong and bad?? On the opposite side, is there a minimum number of pellets deployed, under which it is clearly wrong and bad?

I rambled on at length here and must end with a personal level moral and ethical decision to make. If I had an 8 gauge gun, I would not hesitate to use it if it were legal to do so (don't want to lose my car, the 8 gauge, the backup gun or my hunting privileges).

The main reason for me to have no qualms would be increasing the probability of a clean kill.

I believe all moral and ethical questions are decided at the individual level. I may decide not to kill a certain species, even though legal to do so. That may be based on taste. If I don't eat it, I don't kill it. If another hunter enjoys eating that species, who am I to have a concern.

Okay, I'll end it on that note.

Cheers,
Jack

[Dean Romig]

I, for one, will give it some thought and address those questions later on this evening or tomorrow.

[Brent Lacy]

Intresting thread. As Tom Roster aptly stated in one of his articles, it's not the size of the guage that kills, its the number and size of the pellets. Where is it written that you have to shoot 3oz of shot? I should think that 1 7/8 or even 1 5/8 oz would be tremendously effective beyond 60yds with lead or even some of the non toxics we have to load with - even steel( yuck) would be plausable in the right velocity loading.

Just because an 8 bore was used by some market hunters at a different time in history doesen't mean we can't use it effectively today. Our own prejudices are the only thing that prevents us from using it now- along with the availability of guns chambered for it, ammunition, and restrictive legislation.

Ray, 6 ducks ARE 6 ducks.

[Old and Reliable]

I have read and re-read all the posts here, and there isn't a man who contributed his opinions that I would not share a duck blind or a pheasant swale with for a day- no matter the gauge or make and model of weaponry used. Sportsmanship is a matter of principle and ethics, not arbitrary rules and regs- it is conscience working within us when no one else is watching our actions.

I seem to recall some treatise years ago on how using a smaller gauge shotgun was "more sporting" as it gave the birds we pursue (hopefully with good friends, both two and four legs included) a "chance"-- Huum. I think we all see either to kill cleanly or to miss, and hopefully not to cripple.

If the laws of a certain State allow a 8 bore for turkey, and a sportsman wants to expend the funds and practice to become proficient with such a weapon, that should be his right, any more than the late President Dwight Eisenhower shooting quail with a .410 bore. No hunter or shotgun enthusiast would suggest the reverse- turkeys (or waterfowl) with a .410 and bobwhite quail with a 8 (or 10) gauge-- Common sense in our selection of armament for the clean killing of the certain game we seek prevails-

But there is an underlying thread in such a discussion- I think of the outdoor writer Jim Zumbo and his ill-chosen terms for the M-16 clones some men enjoy using for hunting. If we, as a small niche group, and our brothers with LC Smith, AH Fox, LeFever, Ithaca etc-- interests- do NOT consider ALL legitimate gun owners and fellow shooters/hunters as having a common for- the ANTIS- we are doomed. It won't happen overnight, but I wonder what my now 6 year old Grandson's world for hunting and shooting might be like- 20 years from now-most likely I won't be around by then- who can say.

We need to 'agree to disagree' gentlemen, but in the end, all sit down and raise our glasses (make mine Bushmills or George Dickel please) to the men now gone who gave us such freedoms- Our Founding Fathers, Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, George Grinnell, James Audubon, George Bird Evans, Nash Buckingham, Captain Paul A. Curtis, Colonel Hal Sheldon, Ray P. Holland, Jack O'Connor, the list goes on- they all left us a great legacy, and we need to stand united with fellow gunners to insure that legacy will still stand for generations to come- IMO

[Dean Romig]

Quite possibly your most thoughtful and meaningful post to date - Thank you Francis.

[TARNATION !!!]

Originally Posted by Francis Morin

Sportsmanship is a matter of principle and ethics, not arbitrary rules and regs- it is conscience working within us when no one else is watching our actions.

Francis: This sums it up in one sentence. Well said.

I don't know your friend George but I believe he has some relatives in Scotland, all still single. Should, by some stroke of good fortune, we meet one day, the two could be re-introduced to each other as long lost cousins. The Scots are a wee bit frugal when it comes to sharing, but catch them off guard and it could be a fine get together.

Cheers
Jack

[George Blair]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

Quite possibly your most thoughtful and meaningful post to date - Thank you Francis.

AMEN !

[Ray Masciarella]

I'm sure glad I joined this forum. Wish I could take you all out to the dove field with me tomorrow. I could learn more about life and Parkers!!! Thank you all.

[Ray Masciarella]

Bill: will a 8 ga pattern 90% at 80 yards as Forrest mentions? Do you know what the min barrel thickness should be?