Kent Tungsten Matrix 12 gauge 1400 FPS safe in a 3 frame parker?

[Kevin McCormack]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

What is the "point of duck" velocity of a 1200 fps load compared to a 1450 fps load?

About a freight car length lead! I'll trade velocity for increased payload weight any day!

[Kevin McCormack]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Same as Craig, I regularly shoot the 1-3/8 ounce TM load in Super-Foxes and Winchester 21 Duck guns. Actually the later Supers were made after introduction of the 3-inch 1-5/8 ounce progressive load @ 1315 fps. I'll also shoot the Kent TM 3-inch 1-1/2 ounce load in factory chambered 3-inch Supers when conditions warrant use of the heaviest soft/non-tox shells. Same with the 21 Ducks and my Model 12 Heavy Duck pump gun.

Ditto Ditto Ditto! - With all the heavy clothing worn while waterfowling and the adrenaline rush when they cup their wings and drop their feet, who's thinking about felt recoil anyway! Last week at Beaver Dam we shot everything from 3" Mag 1 1/2 oz. to 2 1/2" (not a misprint!) 1 1/4 oz. Kent TM without so much as a hiccup! Big Birds; Big Guns!!

[Drew Hause]

1220 fps 3' from muzzle is 665 fps at 40 yds.
1400 fps 3' from muzzle is 691 fps at 40 yds.

[Craig Larter]

I hunt in a very large cattail marsh even with a master hunter dog you better put a late season mallard or black down or the chances of recovery are reduced. There is nothing like 1 3/8oz of TM #5's it just puts birds down in my experience. A trained retriever and big guns capable of digesting big shells will not disappoint. Just buy a Super Fox and a case of 1 3/8 Oz TM and learn to shoot if you want to experience waterfowling at it's best. The only better tool is a 10ga. 2 7/8" loaded with a heavy load of bismuth. OK beat me up.

[J.B. Books]

I have never lead targets, inanimate or live any differently when shooting 1100 to 1175 fps loads. When I miss it is not due to not leading the target by an additional 7 inches.

These are the leads for different velocity shells needed to CENTER a left or right crossing shot from station 4 on the skeet field, approx range 25 yards.

1145 fps 60.8 inches
1250 fps 56.8 inches
1350 fps 53.6 inches

[Kevin McCormack]

Before the advent of the cursed steel shot and the mandated non-tox, all we ever shot on ducks was the lead load of 3 1/4-1 1/4 #5s for decoyed ducks, and the 3 3/4-1 1/4-#4s for pass shooting on big puddlers or Canvasbacks and other 'heavy' ducks. After enduring the mish-mash of trying to match guns and ammo in the aftermath of the non-tox era, Kent TM or Bismuth rules for our vintage SxSs that need it, and Black Cloud is our choice for steel shot (#4s for ducks over decoys, #2s or 1s for pass shooting the biggest ducks, and BBs for geese out of a pit or BBB for pass shooting all geese. To each his own!

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Drew Hause

1220 fps 3' from muzzle is 665 fps at 40 yds.
1400 fps 3' from muzzle is 691 fps at 40 yds.

Drew, I presume those figures are for lead shot but you didn't cite the shot size(s).

Smaller shot will "bleed off" speed more rapidly than larger shot.

Also, bismuth shot is about 0.8X the density of lead and thus a bismuth pellet will lose speed at a faster rate than a lead pellet of the exact same diameter. Who has figures comparing the same pellet diameter of bismuth, ITX, TM and lead, at the same muzzle speed, along with their respective 40/50/60 yard speeds?

The bottom line for me is to use TM which is about as dense as lead, and to use the same payload and velocity as we did 30 years ago. I'll make an exception with lighter loads of bismuth for closer work and decoyed birds but I'll let longer range birds pass without shooting if that's what I have in the gun and there's not enough time to switch shells.

We usually only hear about the day's bag. When was the last time someone posted how many birds were feathered, crippled and lost with light loads that were overstretched?

[Tad Tadlock]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Who has figures comparing the same pellet diameter of bismuth, ITX, TM and lead, at the same muzzle speed, and their respective 40 yard speeds?

This link Kent Cartridge Return Of Bismuth and the Ed Lowry article that is referenced have data for bismuth, steel, and lead.

[Drew Hause]

No. 8 shot and you are correct Frank.

And thanks Tad; the short version
Steel #2 MV 1400 - 40 yds. 865 fps
Lead #5 MV 1330 - 40 yds. 710 fps
Bismuth #4 MV 1350 - 40 yds. 696

[Drew Hause]

Western Cartridge Co. never marked the Super-X ‘Field’ or ‘Record’ boxes with “Dr. Eq.” stating only “Maximum Load”. It is presumed that 12g ‘Super-X Field’ 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. was 3 3/4 Drams Equiv. or 1330 fps, and the 3” 1 3/8 oz. ‘Record’ was 1275 - 1295 fps (the speed of 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. loads).

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) #4 shot at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.

From the 1928 edition of “Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe, ballistic engineer of the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. presumed #6 shot loads (1275 fps) and 40 yard fps:
NOTE: pressures were measured by crushers (LUP) and modern transducer measurement pressures would be 10 – 14% higher
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi, 943 fps
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi, 941 fps
28 grains of Ballistite Dense smokeless powder - 12,600 psi, 966 fps
All 3 are greater than the SAAMI 12g 2 3/4” recommended maximum pressure of 11,500 psi.
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi, 981 fps