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paul i tried shooting some of the same loads again this morning in the mills 8 ga gun..in fact shells were loaded same day i shot the other loads..50 grains of pyrodex is a good low pressure load with the 1 1/2 ounce of bb shot..the shells have a very good report not much recoil very little but gun weighs in at 13 .6 lbs ...the load will knock off a lotta oak leaves away up in a oak tree... this will be my squirl load in the 8 ga... charlie