Off Topic Question

[mobirdhunter]

I don't recall the thread, but just recently Dave N. (Researcher) noted the change in weight of Flues models over the time of their production. According to him they beefed up (my words, not his) the frames and corresponding overall weight of the later Flues models. I don't note this as a reply to the original question, but just for reference. I see no reason to tempt fate with loads that may damage an old double.

[Dean Romig]

I certainly agree. If the gun’s not up to the task... but again, what would be considered an “overload” for a 1921 Ithaca 12 gauge Flues?





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[Jean Swanson]

Dean

I will just put this out there---Years ago I was shooting trap & the person next to me was shooting a Winchester ,12 bore , mod. 21 that unknown to all of us was loaded with an overloaded cartridge.Upon pulling the trigger, the gun exploded, leaving the barrels & forearm in his left hand with a missing finger & the bloody face with the action & stock. Not a pleasant sight.

Dean--my reason for saying what I did is simple---" THE RISK IS NOT WORTH THE GAMBLE" .Buying a gun that has a reputation of a weak action, is not good judgement in my book. I think you understand my concern, John is a friend & I would hate to see any misfortune happen !!!

Best to you & Kathy
Allan

[B. Dudley]

Winchester couldn't blow one up. But he could... ha.

[Jean Swanson]

Brian

I was just stating a situation that happened to one of the STRONGEST actions on the market, so what could happen with a gun that is known to have a weaker action. My point. Not worth the exposure/risk !! Factory or hand loaded cartridges could blow up in your hand ----NO guarantees !!! Shit happens. At the age of 80, I have seen a lot happen---some good & some bad.

Just my thoughts
Allan

[Dean Romig]

Allan - I understand completely.

I was not aware of the questionable reputation of the Flues 12 bore. I have owned two Flues models but they were 20 and 28 bore guns and I never gave it a thought because they were both high condition guns and simply shot Morris’ ammo in them... never owned or shot a 12.
In the early 60’s I had a 12 bore Parker Trojan and shot anything that would fit in the chamber... Ignorance is bliss I guess, but in my ignorance I shouldn’t be advising others to do similar fool-hardy things to those I did in my blissful early teens.

Our Best to you and Jean as well.
Dean




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[Randy Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Davis

Not Parker related but I'm asking anyway. If you had a 12 gauge double barrel Ithaca Flues, circa 1921, that was in excellent shape, would you feel safe shooting 2 3/4 dram equivalent shells off the shelf? If so, how about 3 dram equivalent? Thanks, John

No, I would not shoot the 2 3/4 dram personally much less the 3 dram.

[Bill Murphy]

Allan is 80? Congratulations!

[Researcher]

I too thought the frame cracking was confined to the Flues Model smallbores, then I snagged this series of letters off ebay --

October 26, 1932 01.jpg

October 26, 1932 02.jpg

December 19, 1932.jpg

December 30, 1932.jpg

January 9, 1933.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Researcher's letters all date to after the introduction of Western's boomers; 12g ‘Super-X Field’ 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dram Equiv. shell in 1922, and the 3" ‘Record’ with 1 3/8 oz. of shot in 1923.

The Double Gun Journal, Winter 2016, p. 129 had a neat article "Ithaca’s Golden Girls” by Jim Foral, featuring Mrs. E.B. Belknap (Alice) and Mrs. Troup Saxon (Ermina)

Forest & Stream, March 1, 1913
https://books.google.com/books?id=mk...J&pg=PA288&lpg

Mrs. E.B. (Alice) Belknap and her No. 4E Flues



Amateur Sportsman, May 1911
https://books.google.com/books?id=m5...AJ&pg=PA36&lpg

Mrs. Troup (Ermina) Saxon and her No. 7 Flues



They were likely shooting 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. loads with modern transducer pressures of 8,500 - 10,000 psi; similar to today's target loads. And a lot of them.

What John does not know is what loads have been through his Flues, apparently set up for trap, in the past.

But if the frame cracks there is always this




I believe there is much more to the blown up M21 story; just like the "blown up" K80 and Perazzi trap guns. The Model 21 was proved with a “Violent Proof” (VP) load reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons = about 24,000 psi by Burrard's conversion. One M21 survived 2000 of these loads.