Off Topic Question

[Bill Murphy]

Allan is 80? Congratulations!

[Researcher]

I too thought the frame cracking was confined to the Flues Model smallbores, then I snagged this series of letters off ebay --

October 26, 1932 01.jpg

October 26, 1932 02.jpg

December 19, 1932.jpg

December 30, 1932.jpg

January 9, 1933.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Researcher's letters all date to after the introduction of Western's boomers; 12g ‘Super-X Field’ 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dram Equiv. shell in 1922, and the 3" ‘Record’ with 1 3/8 oz. of shot in 1923.

The Double Gun Journal, Winter 2016, p. 129 had a neat article "Ithaca’s Golden Girls” by Jim Foral, featuring Mrs. E.B. Belknap (Alice) and Mrs. Troup Saxon (Ermina)

Forest & Stream, March 1, 1913
https://books.google.com/books?id=mk...J&pg=PA288&lpg

Mrs. E.B. (Alice) Belknap and her No. 4E Flues



Amateur Sportsman, May 1911
https://books.google.com/books?id=m5...AJ&pg=PA36&lpg

Mrs. Troup (Ermina) Saxon and her No. 7 Flues



They were likely shooting 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. loads with modern transducer pressures of 8,500 - 10,000 psi; similar to today's target loads. And a lot of them.

What John does not know is what loads have been through his Flues, apparently set up for trap, in the past.

But if the frame cracks there is always this




I believe there is much more to the blown up M21 story; just like the "blown up" K80 and Perazzi trap guns. The Model 21 was proved with a “Violent Proof” (VP) load reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons = about 24,000 psi by Burrard's conversion. One M21 survived 2000 of these loads.

[Researcher]

Keep in mind that up to April 1940, 1 1/4 ounce loads were allowed in trap shooting. The 3 1/8 dram equiv. pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot was quite a popular load.

Super-Trap Load Lubaloy, DuPont M.X. Smokeless.jpg

Super-Trap Load Lubaloy, DuPont Smokeless, two-piece.jpg

Super-Trap Load Lubaloy, Hercules Red Dot.jpg

TARGET 12-gauge full sealed GILDKOTE 75 May 2019.jpg

REPEATER Trap Load 49 May 2019.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, when you find a box of those Lubaloy trap loads in the 3" case, we'll talk. Drew, were there also ten gauge 3 1/2" available? Of course we lament the fact that the customer could have had a #4 Super Ten for $50.00 but turned it down.

[Drew Hause]

Dave is of course correct.

Field & Stream, 1912, “The Trap Gun and Some Loads” by E.C. Crossman
September, Part 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=OH...J&pg=PA537&lpg
October, Part 2 “Patterns and Loads”
https://books.google.com/books?id=dH...J&pg=PA628&lpg
Crossman listed the standard Trap load as 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/8 Dr. Eq.

In 1913 the Interstate Association submitted a poll to trapshooters:
Are you in favor of restricting loads for target shooting to 3 Drams Bulk, or the equivalent in Dense powder, and 1 1/8 oz. of shot?
Frank Butler – “Let me say that the shooter can break targets with a three dram one and one-eighth load if he holds right. Harold Money, who traveled as a professional for years, always used three Drams “Schultze” Powder and one and one-eighth shot.”

DuPont began an advertising campaign promoting 3 Dram loads in 1914
Forest & Stream
https://books.google.com/books?id=kB4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA835
https://books.google.com/books?id=kB4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA867

In 1919 the Executive Committee of the American Trapshooting Association voted on whether to establish the standard load a 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. The proposal failed.
Arms and The Man, August 2, 1919
https://books.google.com/books?id=TB...C&pg=PA377&lpg


Bill: The Western Super-X Super-Ten shell with 1 5/8 ounces of shot with 4 3/4 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 2 7/8" case was introduced about 1926. The Western Super-X Magnum-Ten with 2 ounces of shot and 5 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 3 1/2" case was introduced in 1932.