New member with question on 20 gauge Parker

[Tim Bivens]

Hi guys, I am new here and live in central Texas, I collect double barrel shotguns and have been interested in getting a Parker for a long time. I am currently checking out Parker #112898. The serial number is on the gun in 4 places and all match. The problem is the information in the Parker Gun and Identification and Serialization book does not match the gun. According to the book this gun was made in 1902 with 16 gauge damascus barrels. The gun is actually a 20 gauge with barrels that are plainly marked "ACME STEEL". The gun has a "G" below the serial number on the water table and a "2" above the serial number. From my limited knowledge I take that this is a "GH" (it is hammerless) or Grade 2 gun. From what I can find the "GH" grade guns did not normally come with "ACME" barrels (The engraving and the stock seem to be consistent with a "GH" gun also). So is the book wrong or was the gun sent back to the factory and rebarreled as a 20 guage?

Thanks,
Tim

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Tim,

Acme Steel barrels were provided on C and higher Grade guns. The "book" may be wrong but Grade 4 barrels on a Grade 2 gun is not likely. It was probably rebarreled and maybe at Parker. Good photos of the barrel flats may reveal a repair code. High quality photos of the action and barrels may reveal much.

Depending on the price, with the higher grade barrels this gun may be a great buy!

Mark

[Tim Bivens]

Mark,
Thanks for the reply. What you are saying is what I already suspected, but I am kind of inexperienced as far as Parkers go. I can get the gun for a good price so I am probably going to go ahead with it. I plan on getting a PGCA letter on the gun after purchase. Maybe they can tell me more about it. When I get the gun in my possession I will try to get some pictures posted here.

Thanks again,
Tim

[Brian Dudley]

Is the gun a 1 frame or an 0 frame?

[Tim Bivens]

Is the gun a 1 frame or an 0 frame?

Not sure of frame size. I am going back to purchase the gun tomorrow. Will check the frame size then and post it here.
Thanks,
Tim

[Brian Dudley]

Just curious... The 1 frame on a 16g is more common, but the 0 frame on a 20g is more common.
It would be interesting to know if there is any factory documentation that shows 20g barrels fitted to that gun.
,Brian

[Paul Plager]

Tim, welcome to the PGCA. :bigbye:That sounds like an interesting gun you have found.
You will find that there is an amazing amount of info available here on this site. You do need to join the Assn. before you order a letter on that gun. You will save $20.00 by joining. $40.00 to join and $40.00 for the letter for members vs. $100.00 for non members. You will also be able to buy and sell guns and other stuff from the members that you can't do as a forum member.

When you get the gun home, we would like to see pictures.:corn:

[Tim Bivens]

I now have the gun in my possession but alas I am afraid the barrels may be of European manufacture. It does say " PARKER BROS. MAKERS MER. CONN. ACME STEEL " on the top of the barrel. On the bottom of the barrel lug it has a "0".
I understand these markings are normal for a Parker Gun. However the rest of the markings do not match anything I see in the pictures I have available of genuine Parker barrels. There is a "20" on the bottom of the left barrel in front of the flat. On the left flat there is a makers mark that I can't quite make out (looks like a tiny coat of arms) then a star in a circle with "PSF" underneath it and also "WK". On the bottom of the right barrel in front on the barrel flat there is a "179". On the right barrel flat there is the word "FINITO" and the roman numeral "XXIV". As soon as I saw the "FINITO" I thought this must be an imported barrel. Can anyone please tell me what all this means?
Thanks,
Tim

[Rick Losey]

pictures help, but it sounds like a reused rib on Italian tubes

is there evidence of being sleeved? a ring around the barrels ahead of the chamber area?

[Tim Bivens]

Hmm, the reused rib on Italian barrels is possible, but as has been noted already this gun did not come with ACME barrels so the rib had to come from another gun. I do not see any evidence of sleeving.
Thanks,
Tim

[Mark Ouellette]

Tim,

The Italian, English, and Belgium barrels found on some Parkers and other vintage guns take away from their collector value but make them great shooters! I own a couple of Parkers with English barrels that are wonderful guns. I also own a LC Smith Grade 2 with Belgium barrels. That Elsie is a 10 gauge and the barrels and action are proofed for the 3 1/2" magnum shells!

As I sculled into a raft of over 2000 ducks this past October I had the Elsie with 3 1/2" Bismuth #4. One shot laid down four ducks. Modern barrels on our old guns are a pleasure to shoot...

Mark

[Dean Romig]

If I had seen your thread earlier I would have warned you that I have recently, within the last year or two, seen four Parkers with replacement European fluid steel barrels marked Acme Steel exactly as you.

[allen newell]

Are European barrels still being installed on Parker frames? Was this a practice done in the past and by whom? Was/is it an acepted practice to replace blown out barels/damsacus barrels?

[Brian Dudley]

Sound to me like the barrels are sleeved with replacement tubes. Post a picture of the breech end of the tubes. There should be a joint of some sort visable. The fact that the gun was a 0 frame 16 guage originally explains by they went down to a 20g size when sledging. Typically sledging requires the guage to be reduced. Especially if there is not a lot of all thickness. If the gun was a 1 frame, the 16g bore MIGHT have been maintained.

[Mark Ouellette]

I own two Parkers with English barrels which used the original ribs and lug.

[Bill Murphy]

My Lefever sleeved DH 3 1/2" ten has the original ribs and lugs.

[Dave Noreen]

Back in the 1960s Atlas provided replacement barrels for Parker Bros. guns, at one point made of Vickers Steel --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/AtlasArmsParkerBarrels.jpg

A good friend of mine bought a straight-gripped DH-Grade 12-gauge with Italian barrels at Fredrick & Nelson in downtown Seattle back in 1967. We are still looking for the original Damascus barrels for #88224.

[Dean Romig]

Tim, do your barrels have wedge engraving at the breech end?

[Tim Bivens]

Dean, No the barrels do not have any wedge engraving or any engraving period for that matter. There is no evidence of sleeving either. I will try to get some good pictures to post this weekend. I am working a lot of hours now and also the flash is not working on my digital camera. Maybe I can get some good daytime pictures outside this weekend. I really appreciate all the input from all the guys here.
Thanks,
Tim

[Tim Bivens]

Okay guys, I took some pictures of the barrel and the water table as promised. I don't have the best photography equipment, just did the best I could. I know the old girl looks a little rough. This is the as-found condition, haven't done any cleaning or anything yet.
Thanks,
Tim

[Dean Romig]

My, how unusual! I know what WK means but are some of the other stamps Italian proof marks?

That is the first and only rib I have seen marked that way. Further, it does not have the Parker roll-matting on the gtop rib. How strange! I wonder what the "story" is with this Parker.

[Brian Dudley]

It definately appears to be new production barrels. Possibly reusing a few parts, like the locking lugs and such. But, there does not seem to be any sign of sleeving.
The rib does not look original to me. The font of the marking is larger and not correct style to be original. Also, the opening in the matting (for the letters) looks to be larger than normal. I think that the rib was just the barrel makers reasonable attempt at recreating the parker markings.

I do not think, off the top of my head, that Parker ever abreviated Meriden as "MER". Who knows why they chose to use ACME as the steel name on this set.

[Bill Murphy]

The WK seems to be applied by the maker of the new barrels.

[edgarspencer]

I do not think, off the top of my head, that Parker ever abreviated Meriden as "MER".

Lots of people incorrectly say 'Meridian' in stead of Meriden. Luigi figured he was safe just saying MER.