Gun Dogs

[Dennis V. Nix]

Having seen some beautiful dogs on this forum I wonder if we could run a thread about hunting dogs. I have never owned a hunting dog and if I should ever be so blessed to have one I would want to know what the general opinion is of the best dog for hunting pheasant, woodcock, ducks and geese, grouse, overall upland hunting, retrieving etc. Maybe that is too much to ask in one thread but what does the group think is the best dog. I know not one dog can handle all of the above but for each of the above.

Dennis

[Craig Larter]

Labs can do it all---my 1 year old Lucy this season

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/IMG_0005a.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/lucy_8.jpg
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[Rich Anderson]

This will get a lot of controversy going. Craig has a Lab that does it all as do others here. Just as one gun can't do it all IMHO one breed of dog can't either. For upland birds I prefer a pointer and my breed of choice is a GSP. I have had some wonderfull ones (Gunner for example) and some that should have never stayed as long as they have but they become members of the family regardless of breed or ability. I no longer hunt waterfowl but if I did I'd have a Lab.

To hunt upland birds without a dog is just a walk in the woods with a gun.

[Rick Losey]

since this will end being entirely opinion based no matter who says what

and be a setter fella my self - here is mine

decide on the balance between waterfowl and upland -

if it tilts towards waterfowl - go lab or golden retreiver, if you like to hunt over flushing dogs.

Generally (remember as I have said here before "all generalizations are false" ) you will find goldens to be softer personalities. I fell in with a bad crowd once upon a time :whistle: and hunted waterfowl for several years. I had a golden then (how and why was a funny story). She was fantastic on water work and pretty good on upland especially pheasants (although she would retrieve a duck some one had shot days before, she could not be talked into picking up a woodcock)

The labs I have been around fit the same bill. Some Chessies will also do both as will. Just remember the old addage - you train a Golden with your voice, A lab with a stick and a Chessie with a 2x4 :rotf:

if the mix falls more to upland - go with a versitile breeds like the Germans or even a standard poodle- they will do water work just fine especially in the earlier season. I would not look for them to have the build for breaking ice.

IMHO - spaniels are great dogs for upland and ducks but a little light for geese, although I know some will handle them

ask around your local sportsmans clubs and find some examples of the breeds that interest you and ask owners to see the dogs or recommend breeders. Most dog folks love to talk about their hunting partners

just remember - a dog is a long term partner, choose carefully and the two of you will fill a book with memories to last a lifetime.

[Daryl Corona]

Craig is right on. I've owned pointers but they are specialists. For my money and the various birds I hunt there is nothing to compare to a lab. Never trained one with a stick just a lot of love and repetition. Get yourself a pointing lab and you'll never ask for more. Craig, please note 20ga. sterly in last photo. Sorry guys, Fox makes some damn nice handling smallbores too.

[John Dallas]

Agree with all that has been said. I'm a Lab/Springer guy (just lucky, I guess), but I would add that you should ensure that any new pup come from a hunting/field trial line. As an example, most show-bred Springers, Labs and Goldens will be less than stellar in the field.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Opinion thread for sure.
I firmly believe that all canines are natural born predators. The instinct is not far below the surface; therefore, most any breed - with a minimum of encouragement, can perform in the field. I have had labs and pointers and also taken along family pets that you wouldn't ever think of as hunting dogs, including shelties and two mini-American eskimos. They all can find and flush. Point and hold is another story. For that I loved TAZ my GSP.
At the moment I have CHARLIE (LabxHusky) and KYRA (mini-American Eskimo) They are both fun to watch when they get birdy.
Rich is so right - Upland without a dog is a walk with a gun

Upland with a dog is indeed a pleasureable walk with a gun and a great meal afterwards. (Well, if we do our part - the best dog, best shotgun, best ammo still needs us to place the shot pattern over the bird)

CHARLIE
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=120&pictureid=1356
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http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=120&pictureid=3076
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=120&pictureid=1817
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=120&pictureid=4175

[charlie cleveland]

so true jack...love the dogs and snow and of course the phez... charlie

[Gary Laudermilch]

In my younger years I hunted pheasants and ducks with several goldens that were out of field stock. They were exceptional performers and the best buddy a guy could want. Eventually, I moved to grouse and woodcock country with my best ever golden. He made the transition flawlessly and I shot a bunch of birds over him. Several of my friends are into the cover dog(wild grouse and woodcock) field trial game and they talked me into getting a setter. I am now on my third one with absolutely no regrets. I should mention that I am a bit of a specialist in that I only hunt the king of game birds except for a few doves early in the season.

Here are my boys, 9 months, 6 yrs, and 12 yrs.

[Stephen Hodges]

I have raised and trained/hunted labs in the past and I absolutely love the breed and all the dogs I had. Just wanted something different and have chosen a pure Llewellin, Star, which I have posted pictures of here before. He is now 15 months old and we had a great first season together. I hope we have many more.

[David Weber]

The perfect dog? Like asking for the perfect wife. Lol. My breed of choice is the lab.

[King Brown]

A Lab is tractable, superb with children, very easily trained, good on waterfowl, grouse, pheasants in my experience. Chessie is superb in extreme North Atlantic waterfowl hunting, mind-of-his-own, one-man dog, to-keep-an-eye-on in my experience. I've owned, hunted and trained Labs for 45 years.

[Dean Romig]

King, I know very little about the Nova Scotia Tolling Dog... will they retrieve waterfowl?

[John Farrell]

First you have to define the difference between a birddog and a gundog. The birddog is just that. It was developed in the early 1800s to assist the tenant farmers of Great Britain, (who did not have access or legitimate ownership to fowling pieces) in finding upland birds, standing at point until given the command "Charge" whereupon it laid down, and then the hunter threw a net over the bird to capture dinner. Birddogs use their noses in the cone of scent that comes off the bird to pinpoint it so the owner can toss a net. Or in current times, bring up his classic double gun to bring dinner home.

Gundogs, on the other hand, were developed as trackers. With the exception of Labradors, they later became retrievers when they were to be used in bird hunting. Gundogs come in all breeds. The commonality of gundogs is they were developed to track wounded game in the forests of Europe. They could track any four footed critter leaving a blood trail and then attempt to tree, corner or kill it while the shooters caught up to the scene of carnage. Hopefully, the dog did not eat too much of the game before the shooter arrived. That is where the nom-de-plume Meatdog dog came from.

If you are going to hunt upland game with a classic side by side, the setter or pointer is the classic dog to use. I have spent the last 35 years doing research into the great breeders of England and the US. They all have one thing in common, they use the correct gun and the correct dog in their proper pursuit of the elusive upland bird. While pointing is required, retrieving is optional.

The photo of Tag and Woody was taken about 200 yards from the homeplace after a 4 hour hunt in the river bottoms. Tag is obviously tuckered out and is taking a sit down point. Woody is in his classic back.

[Bruce Day]

Bird dogs: Llewellin setters

[Russ Jackson]

Old Maggie after a Day in the Thick Stuff !

[Russ Jackson]

Maggies Boy ," Chipper " On Point and doing what he loves most !

[Bob Jurewicz]

GPS Quillow 12 and Kokee 2
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Bobguns/photo1.jpg

[Chuck Heald]

Dennis,
I was without a dog until about 6-7 yrs ago here in your area...southern California. My first dog was a Lab. I chose a Lab not because I do waterfoul (yes, "foul"):corn:, but because I didn't have a clue on how to train and how to handle a dog, nor what I wanted or expected from the dog. An overwhelming number of hunters suggested this was the way to go. I don't think you can go wrong with one. But you'll have to realize that in this area of the country, the heat can easily limit a lab for upland hunting. I won't take mine out if it's above 70F. The beauty and partnership formed of hunting with a lab is also their limitation. A trained lab will hunt very close so as to be in gun range all the time. That means you'll see them get birdy and work a bird up. That also means that you have to walk a lot to cover a lot of ground. If you hunt open country, you and a lab only cover a bit of it. Labs have physical limits that become apparent quickly in the heat and terrain of the southwest open country. But it's a very close and personal way to hunt upland that is pleasant and rewarding.
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A couple years ago, I decided I wanted a more athletic pointing dog that could cover more ground and was more suited to the warmer climate of the southwest. I quickly narrowed my list to the German Shorthair and English Pointer. I had hunted with shorthairs and thought they were a good way to go. But after taking some classes with a well known trialer and trainer, I went with a English Pointer, because of their athletic abilities and because I don't waterfoul or fowl. I'm only a year into owning my pointer, but I can see it's starting to pay off. My pointer can cover more ground than any dog I've ever hunted around. Last year, that wasn't necessarily a good thing as AmarilloMike can attest (more like make fun of :rotf:). She was busting birds half a county away:banghead:. This year, she's really coming around and paying off. Last weekend, I had her out on wild Valley quail. She covered the entire side of a large steep hilly area about 10 acres, just on my whistle commands and her drive to hunt, then found a covey on a downwind track and turned to point it. It's a different way to hunt for sure, but I'm starting to really enjoy it because the southwest can have very sparse upland bird populations that required a lot of ground to be covered. My observation is that an English pointer will hunt faster and cover more ground, ranging further, than a German Shorthair, by a bunch in most cases. But I have seen one brace of GSP's that would give most EP's a run. But, I think it's more the exception than the rule. The kennel I visited up in Idaho in Sept trained all GSPs but is now moving to all EPs due to their athletic ability. It's sure a big jump from my lab to a EP. Probably the extreme ends of the upland dogs.

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For a first dog in SoCal, I think a GSP would fit your bill of a bit of waterfoul and upland and do it well enough that you'd be really happy. The GSP's I've been around were excellent companions as well.

[Rich Anderson]

Yesterday a friend who has two Llewellen setters and I went for a Pheasant hunt. I had Crazy Gaisy my GSP. The dog work was superb by all three and we saw and shot quite a few birds. Some shots were good some not so good.

One of the not so good shots will stand out in the memory bank for a long, long time. We were working a ditch and all three dogs were birdy. Finally they all locked up on point with Daisy streched out in a classic point paw raised her stubby tail straight up. Ella one of the Setters hard on point facing Daisy and Gracie the youngest dog backing solidly. It was the prettiest point I have seen Daisy ever make and I didn't have the camera:crying::cuss:. Well the bird flushed which was a hen with nothing around her except clear blue sky and I missed her not once but twice as she put hundreds of long snowy yards between us. I swear Daisy and Ella cussed my out:)

John, Dave's setter Ella will lay down when she points a bird. On the way home I asked him about it and he said the same thing you did about the gamekeepers netting birds. It's nice to learn something new.

[King Brown]

Dean, the Nova Scotia Toller or Little River Duck Dog (of Yarmouth County) as they were known when I made a little film on them 58 years ago is companionable, used in tamer waters but not in the hard stuff of the ledges and off-shore islands. They are often hard-headed and I wouldn't recommend one. Having said that, last week I saw a really good Toller not a kilometre from my home, a dandy spirited little fellow who loved his job. So I'm generalizing more from how I feel than experience. I know Tollers are used in tough stuff on our South Shore but not as many now as years ago.

[Chuck Heald]

Agree with all that has been said. I'm a Lab/Springer guy (just lucky, I guess), but I would add that you should ensure that any new pup come from a hunting/field trial line. As an example, most show-bred Springers, Labs and Goldens will be less than stellar in the field.

Words not to take lightly. The last class I took with Hickox in Idaho, a student brought his house pet Springer. That dog could care less about a bird. It wouldn't even walk over to it when tossed on the ground. I've seen the same thing in two labs around the neighborhood. I had a live pigeon in my birdbag at a local city park, waiting for dark to run a drill with my lab. Two neighborhood ladies had their labs there watching us. I teased them (the ladies' dogs, not the ladies:nono:) with the live bird. Neither dog (nor lady:whistle:) was interested.

Predatory drive is bred, not trained. Training hunting dogs is just about harnessing that predatory drive.

[Mark Ouellette]

This is me and Radar my Chesador. He is half Labrador which gives him a lovable personality. He is also half Chesapeake which makes him stubborn as heck! Being half Chessie also makes him have “grit”, that is strong character and perseverance! Radar is a special dog to me. He is my Ol’Yeller or Lassie-dog. Radar is my companion as well as hunting partner.

Radar is a great waterfowler and fine upland dog. He hunts close and I like that. I love to see him get “birdie”. We do as Chuck pointed out; cover a lot of ground together. That’s fine for he is 11 and me almost 5 times that. We tire together.

Being 11 years old I know that I have but a few more years with Radar. I love him so that his passing will hurt me more than I can imagine. That makes me think about what dog will be next? For me, who wants a companion and gun dog, I think it will be a Pointing Lab or Standard Poodle.

Good luck in your analysis and decision. Dogs bring joy to our lives. Also, we can learn a lot from our dogs if we take the time to learn.

[Brian Stucker]

Mark, that is a neat dog. I've never heard of that breed and please tell me it combines the best of the two. Great pics. Could you tell us what the two guns are and a bit about them? Thanks, Brian

[Daryl Corona]

Mark;
Great picture. Maybe it's the lighting but you look much older than Radar.:rotf: Enjoy your buddy while you can. God gives them to us for a very short time so the love and affection they give us is concentrated. You never hunt alone when you hunt with your dog. Give him a treat for me on Christmas morning.

[charlie cleveland]

that is one fine pal you have there...most of the times man will out live his dog and we have great love for them..but sometimes the dog outlives us..i have seen a dog grieve his self to death over the passing of thedogs owner...such great love... i dont think i could match this love...all that i can do is love my pal whish is a little jack russel shes 3 shes making a fine squirl dog shes a fine companion will even help you finish your ice cream cone once in a while...what would we do with out our partners of the field and home... charlie

[King Brown]

Good advice from John and Chuck. I've been lucky with Labs in the sense that I never got a palooka (although we all know that generally the owner makes the dog). With my current Jake I knew that he would be my last dog because of my age. I scouted for field experience and fortunately there's a kennel fairly close to home owned by a duck and geese hunter, former Ducks Unlimited worker, and dog trainer. I'm living out my years with a champ, bird dog through and through. Choosing a dog is serious business!

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Brian,

That photo was the subject of a recent Parker Pages article which I wrote from a revised version of the first thread listed below. In this thread I list the guns and qualities of my Chesador. I invite you to join the Parker Gun Collectors Association (PGCA). It will be the best $40 you ever spent! The Parker Pages alone are worth that and more!

A good dog, pheasants, and Parkers:
http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5943&highlight=Radar

Back to the Chesador. These are an old cross bread often from accidental litters between owner's Labs and Chessies. Radar had the strongest personality of his litter and although several experiance dog owner/trainers had him as their first pick they said no way and chose one of his siblings. I had last pick and according to the breaders, got the best of the litter. I would not argue with that!

The following threads have photos of me and Radar which shows how big a part of my life he is.
“If there are no dogs in Heaven, I want to go where they go!”

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2730&highlight=Radar*

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2585&highlight=Radar*

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5569&highlight=Radar

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5359&highlight=Radar

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7135&highlight=Radar

[Bob Jurewicz]

"MY PHEASANT!!!"

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Bobguns/ParkerGH139634002.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

now that pup loves to have his picture took.... charlie

[Rich Anderson]

Bob, thats a nice looking Shorthair.

[chris dawe]

Here's Heiko ,a Drathaar from Vom Willow Rock Kennel's here in Newfoundland...hand's down the best buddy I ever had ,and he will do it all point ,retrieve ,track big game and run fur,he's tough as nail's in the thick stuff, but a real baby around the house.

[charlie cleveland]

is that your son chris in the picture...i was about that young following my dad a hunting...that picture brought back memories... charlie

[chris dawe]

Yup,that's my boy Jack he's 8...his gun is'nt real ,just a toy sxs .

[Rich Anderson]

It might be a toy but it's still a SXS toy:). How is the Woodland Caribou population faring?

[chris dawe]

Hi Rich,the Caribou are still in a pathetic state,they still put out licence's which I can't comprehend (I have not applied in almost 10 year's ) I blame it on mismanagement and I always will.

The same thing happened in the early 1900's (don't quote me ) due to massive over hunting,but the herd did recover over time ...and they are recovering now ,I've enclosed a photo I took a couple year's ago ..note the lack of nice head gear ,I have an opinion about that as well !

Although I'm a grouse hunting fanatic,and I truly enjoy and appreciate a plate of Moose ,
The Caribou and Ptarmigan are Newfoundland's true sporting king's!

[Dean Romig]

Substandard headgear could be attributed to overhunting of those animals with superior headgear thus drastically reducing the gene pool that produces big antlers.

[Jay Gardner]

A lot of excellent advice in this thread. I started with a field-bred Golden and then moved to setters. The analogy to women is humorous but very true. You are making a commitment for a lifetime. It's best for all involved not to make an impulsive decision.

[chris dawe]

Substandard headgear could be attributed to overhunting of those animals with superior headgear thus drastically reducing the gene pool that produces big antlers.

Yeah ,when a distinct island herd consistently has it's prime animal's removed by the highest bidder you don't have to look too far to see what's going on

[Rich Anderson]

A Woodland caribou has been on my "list" for a very long time. I should have gone years ago but did other trips instead.