Parker DHE 12 ga Damascus Barrels

[Ross Alvord]

I would appreciate some advice on a Parker DHE 12 ga, 2-3/4" chambers circa 1905, w/ 30" Damascus barrels, Solid Rib, Chokes F/F (.044/.041). It has been restored by Doug Turnbill, NY (top-rate restorer as I understand). I might have liked an original condition English double and/or a Parker, but combination of condition/price likely won me over here.

1. What would be safe ammunition to shoot? I noticed a company called RST Shotshells that produces low pressure shells. Or, is it possible to use any off-the-shelf shells safely in this vintage shotgun? What do I need to look for: Brand? Pressure? Shell Casing? Other?

2. Where, how, and should I have the barrels certified "Nitro Proof" as I understand it? I might feel better and safer to have it proofed. Having a restored gun might allow me more "peace of mind" (apparently inspected, a bit less collector appeal) in shooting it once I know it is fully safe and capable.

3. I noticed an article somewhere regarding Briley tubes fitted to the barrels. I suppose that is one approach, but I might prefer to be more original if I can do it safely? Otherwise, maybe that is an option to consider.

4. I would be pleased with any comments, perspective, shared knowledge, etc., that anyone is willing to provide reagarding these old fine Parkers, their care, shooting, do's/don'ts, other. I'm a bit green on this era of firearms.

No photos yet, maybe I can include later.

Thanks much.

[Rick Losey]

Yes Turnbull restorations are very well done,

to your points

#1 - assuming safe wall thickness - RST are as good as you will find. Polywad makes the "Vintager" shell which is another good low pressure 2 1/2 inch - off the shelf shells will likely be higher pressure. your chamber are most likely not 2 3/4 inch originally, but some were. By 1905 - smokless powder was in common use - but I personally stick to the low presure loads in damacus

#2 - not sure if you are in the USA - there is no standard proof house here. you can have it done at Birmingham England Proof house - not inexpensive, and you need an exporter to handle the transfer.

#3 - sure you can tube it - but if the barrels are good you don;t need to

#4 - look in the Hunting with Parkers forum for some pictures of other damascus DH's in action

as for care- its not much different than any good double - keep it clean and shoot it safely

we will certainly look forward to photos when you can share them. Join the PGA and get a letter on the gun- you can sometimes find some interesting history on the guns.

[Ross Alvord]

Good info, thanks much. I am in USA. My only reason for the Nitro Proofing idea was to validate the condition and a safety issue. If we can determine otherwise then I am OK. I don't expect to push any loads as I have other guns to do that with. This is just for fun and to own a piece of fine history in a fine Parker. Great advice. Thanks for your support.

[Rick Losey]

a Parker research letter may show you if the gun was originally 2 3/4, Or a call to Doug Turnbull's shop may let you know if it was opened there They may also have records of what was done to the barrels- most importantly - was any metal removed to clean up the bores. But I seriously doubt a gun left his shop dressed up with no place to go - (safe to shoot) so the question would be has it been altered since the restoration.

My opinion is that the most important thing to know is the wall thickness. Many of these gun had plenty of meat in them to start - and a light cleaning out did those no harm.

these old guns - when in safe condition - are a blast (pun intended) to shoot. I shot a DH damascus over my dogs several times this season.


where are you located? we might be able to find a shop near you with the knowledge to check them.

[Brian Dudley]

Wall thickness and bore condition are key here. Why chance nitro proofing them and having catastrophic results? When an RST load will work just fine. Again considering safe wall thickness and good bores. I do not know how long ago Turnbull restored this gun, but I would not think him to restore a gun that was not safe to shoot. But you never know.
RST shells are reasonably priced for the benefits they have, starting at around $10 a box.

[Ross Alvord]

O.H. I am in UT. Maybe a good idea to get to a qualified gunsmith for a checkout on barrels and thickness and a once over inspection. I'm hoping the 2-3/4" chamber is original but don't know that yet. A letter is a good idea also.

B. Dudley, I would think if the gun was very questionable that D. Turnbull would not have gone through the restoration. I can't yet speak to the 2-3/4" chamber, that is the listing. I saw a 1900 that was 2-1/2". I will need to verify.

Do we have any idea what the wall thickness should have been to start and/or what is "safe and acceptable"?

Thanks for the advice and details.

[Rick Losey]

some light reading on the wall thickness question

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1565&highlight=wall+thickness

[Ross Alvord]

Great, that explains it clearly. I'll check it and see what it measures.

[Mike Shepherd]

Another thread with some minimum wall thickness content:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7889&highlight=minimum

[Ross Alvord]

Great info. Thanks for the threads and references. Very helpful.

[Brian Dudley]

There is no standard for what wall thickness "should" be. Thickness varies with every gun. Based on the amount of metal was removed in factory striking, and also if they have been refinished or not. The critical spot it around the tip of the forend, this is where pressures are greatest. Check out the couple threads that have been linked in above for more info. Wall thickness must be measured with special tools. Simply checking the muzzle end will not do it.

[Greg Baehman]

The critical spot it around the tip of the forend, this is where pressures are greatest.
Are you sure about that?

[Mark Ouellette]

Pressure reaches peak in the chamber.

[charlie cleveland]

anybody ever see a gun that just the chamber area or the first 4 inches of chamber that they would deem unsafe to shoot... i have not...charlie

[Brian Dudley]

Is it not generally accepted that the critical spot for checking wall thickness is 9-10 " from the chambers?

[Mark Ouellette]

I measure the entire length of the barrel in several radials.

Having the forward hand at about 9" from the breach makes it a good place to check, assuming fingers are important.

Pressure is highest in the chamber.

[Mark Ouellette]

Jent,

What pressure was the ammo that bulged those three #1 Frame Damascus barreled Parkers?

The term "Light Target Load" seems to denote low recoil and a lower weight of shot rather than low pressure.

Be it high or low, pressure and recoil are not necessarily the same.

[Greg Baehman]

Is it not generally accepted that the critical spot for checking wall thickness is 9-10 " from the chambers?
That may or may not be generally accepted, a barrel could have a thin spot anywhere along its length. A thin spot could have been caused by a myriad of reasons such as repairs to bulges, dents or even when it was originally manufactured. Here's a generic drawing of a 12-ga. barrel showing wall thickness contour along its length (all barrels are not created equal and any other barrel is likely to be different than this example), a thin spot relative to the pressure exerted at that spot anywhere along its length could cause bulges or bursts.

[Greg Baehman]

Pressure reaches peak in the chamber.

Here is a chart, verifying what Mark stated, put out by Dupont showing pressure peaks in the first 1"-1 1/2" of the breech and then drops quickly as the load moves down the barrel. Many of us are shooting loads in our Parkers with pressures considerably lower than the loads that were tested by Dupont for this chart. I wonder if our nitro loads that develop ~4000-7000 psi behave similarly?

[Mark Ouellette]

Greg,

Thanks for posting the barrel thickness diagram!

Toward what you stated, pressure in a contained space is constant. Since pressure is constant, the weakest (thinnest) area will rupture if the pressure is too high.

[Mark Ouellette]

The Dupont pressure curve chart posted by Greg shows that as the wad and shot are pushed down the barrel the pressure is on a constant rate of decline. Key points of this are:

1. A load which creates excessive pressure will burst or bulge (cause permanent deformation) the area at or very close to the chamber.

2. A barrel that burst or split much past the chamber had an obstruction in it which caused a rapid rise in pressure. Since the wad and shot were far from the chamber the thinnest portion of pressure vessel (barrel between the breach and base of the wad) suffered deformation.

3. A very low pressure load can cause detonation which can damage a barrel. This is different than too high pressure caused by an overload or obstruction in #1 and #2 above.

[Mark Ouellette]

Here is a chart, verifying what Mark stated, put out by Dupont showing pressure peaks... in the first 1"-1 1/2" of the breech and then drops quickly as the load moves down the barrel. Many of us are shooting loads in our Parkers with pressures considerably lower than the loads that were tested by Dupont for this chart. I wonder if our nitro loads that develop ~4000-7000 psi behave similarly?

Greg,

Yes they do. I have a peizo-electric pressure pressure gauge and my 6000 PSI loads have similar but reduced pressure curves as those measured by Dupont.

Mark

[Drew Hause]

Chamber blowout

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/346943274.jpg

More images here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456

[Carl Erickson Jr]

Is I understand it, Blue Dot Powder has the same pressure curve as black powder. The difference is that a much smaller quantity of Blue Dot is used to create those pressures. One of the principle reasons for using reduced loads in older shotguns is to protect the old wood. Even is the shotgun barrel has thick solid walls I would use a reduced load in an old gun.

[Mark Ouellette]

A load can produce high recoil and low pressure or...

A load can produce low recoil and high pressure!

Excessive recoil will crack stocks while excessive pressure will deform barrels.

[Greg Baehman]

3. A very low pressure load can cause detonation which can damage a barrel. This is different than too high pressure caused by an overload or obstruction in #1 and #2 above.
Mark, would you please explain this? What would be considered a very low pressure load in terms of psi?

[Ross Alvord]

Jent, the Frame Size is a "3". This is a "Waterfowl" weight, heavier frame, heavier barrels. Don't know the barrel weight yet, but supposedly heavier than typical. Once I can determine status of barrels then maybe I have something worthy of shooting. Granted, I could alwasy put in some Briley Tubes and shoot 16ga or 20ga but I think I'll hopefully be able to shoot this one with some Vintage shells.

[Mark Ouellette]

Greg,

This is mysterious and I do not completely understand the causes of detonation is a shotgun or pistol. I am not certain anyone does...

Detonation is an explosion rather than the deflagration (buring) of power. High explosives detonate via a supersonic shock wave. For low explosives such as smokeless (and black) powder, maybe under under rare circumstances a squib (far too light) powder charge may cause detonation which is otherwise known as a Secondary Explosive Effect?

Detonation may occur when using a squib load which is a serious concern when loading some light powder charge revolver ammo. I have not encountered low pressure shotgun data which produces much less than 6000 PSI in a 12 gauge. Okay, there may be a load or two at 5000 PSI but they are few and far betweeen...

To cause a detonation... If one would try to develop loads at much lower pressure than 5000 PSI they may cause a detonation which might burst or bulge a barrel at the weakest point between the chamber and the base of the wad. Perhaps a shock wave may result when the powder is mostly burned and the wad is still traveling down the barrel creating a vaccumn?

Another theory is that a reduced powder charge might be ignited too fast by the primer. If burn rate is determiend by the surface area of a powder then direct explosure of too much surface are at the energy of a primer might induce a faster burn rate? Just a theory of mine...

Where are the explosives experts when I need them? :)

That's my best for now...
Mark

[Carl Erickson Jr]

My suggestion is to 1: find the chamber length 2. shoot hells that have 1 ounce or less loads at a moderate velocity such as RST. I would have the gun checked out by a competent gunsmith for wood or mechanical problems to include barrel wall thickness. I would further suggest that you might want to learn how to load your own shells to meet your needs.

[Frank Cronin]

Mark,

What year did this chart come from DuPont? Just curious.

Frank

[Drew Hause]

"Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics" by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1933.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17126410/404232424.jpg

Validated by Sherman Bell "Finding Out for Myself, Part VI, Smokeless vs Black", in The Double Gun Journal - Summer 2002, p.19

[charlie cleveland]

that 6 frame must be a 8 ga with that barrel weight of 8 lb 10 ounce...could be a ten ga but not many tens built with that much barrel weight..thow i think thomas s 10 ga barrels weigh over 9 lbs...lordy i like the monster guns...sorry i got off track... charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

For Greg's question of what causes "detonation" in a barrel:

From a US Army Technical Manual:

b. Deflagration. If a particle of an explosive reaches a temperature at which the rate of decomposition becomes significant, deflagration or spattering of the particles from the surface occur prior to decomposition. At a characteristic temperature, heat output is sufficient for the reaction to proceed and be accelerated without input of heat from another source. At this temperature, called the ignition temperature, deflagration, a surface phenomenon, begins. Gaseous reaction products flow away from the unreacted material below the surface. Deflagration of all the particles in a mass of finely divided explosive occurs almost simultaneously. In a confined space, pressure increases, which, in turn has the effect of increasing the rate of reaction and temperature. The final effect of deflagration under confinement is explosion, which may be violent deflagration or even detonation. In the case of low explosives, such as loose black powder and pyrotechnic compositions, only violent deflagration can take place. Nitrocellulose propellants (smokeless powders) can burn, or if confinement is sufficient, deflagrate so rapidly as to detonate.

[Greg Baehman]

3. A very low pressure load can cause detonation which can damage a barrel. This is different than too high pressure caused by an overload or obstruction in #1 and #2 above.
Mark, thanks for posting that from the US Army Technical Manual. I still wonder if a very low pressure load can cause detonation which can damage a barrel. Hopefully the published low pressure 7/8 and 1 ounce recipes utilizing PB powder that generate 4300 to 5100 psi that I'm using in my damascus guns aren't adding any additional risk.

[Ross Alvord]

Jent, Frame size is a "2" as in the photo you attached. Also some other numbers on bottom of barrel left to right: D with a smaller 4 above, then a small c, then 4 with small 6(as if 4 to 6th power), then a 3. The barrel lug has a 2 on the bottom. I take it the "2" is the actual frame size. What are the other numbers?

Bottom of receiver has the serial number with 3 above and D below.

Although the serial number would say it is a 1906, the inside/bottom of the reciever has a date of PATD. Aug 15, 1905

[Paul Plager]

Ross the large 4 with a small 6 is the unstruck barrel weight. 4lbs 6oz after assembly before cleanup, with the forend attached. The D stands for damascus steel. You are correct that the 2 is frame size. The small c and the 3 are most likely craftsmans stamps.
I have a twin to your gun. RST shells are the way I go for loads as I dont yet have the resources to reload my own. I also have 2 10ga. A damascus and a Twist that I use RST ammo in. Enjoy your Parker.

[Ross Alvord]

Frame size is a Number 2. I'm happy it is that heavy as it could have been a lighter frame. It is a DHE or 3 Grade, 30" barrels, rib tight, barrels uncut and in excellent condition, butt stock uncut but has a Pachmayr butt pad (can I find an original somewhere, plastic or steel?, Maybe have one made if not?), bores are bright probably honed, chambers 2-1/2". This gun was sent to Turnbull for restoration work in the past, looks terrific. I'll get some pictures uploaded a bit later, just got it. At this point, I am VERY pleased with what I got in this 1905 Parker. (Gun has the date of 1905 engraved on it as I mentioned , but the serial number would say 1906 by the numbers on this website). Maybe the frame was manufactured in 1905 and serialized in 1906? What date then technically prevails? It was stated to be a 1905.