Grouse and Woodcock Shooting

[Greg Baehman]

I received the following in an e-mail, found it interesting and thought youse might find it interesting, too.

PDJ Pass Along Email


Grouse and Woodcock Shooting

By Steve Smith
If you've spent any time at all in the grouse and woodcock covers, you have likely figured out that woodcock are easier to hit than ruffed grouse. But how much easier?

Ken Szabo from Ohio runs a nifty little outfit called The Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters. He puts out a newsy monthly newsletter called Grouse Tales and sells some nice products as well. (I'm pretty sure Ken doesn’t remember me, but we met at a RGS banquet in Ohio more than 30 years ago.)

Every year, he asks his members to keep a log of their grouse-hunting success: days and hours hunted, flushes, flushes per hour, type of dog and shotgun used, percentage of flushes they were able to get shots at, and how many of those shots bagged a bird. This year, he also asked for the number of woodcock flushes, flushes shot at, and successful shots, too.

The percentages of flushed grouse that the cooperators got shots at came out close to the group's long-term average for grouse = 24.9 percent. For woodcock, the same group got shots at 32.27 percent, which you would expect because woodcock are generally in sight longer and are less likely to flush wild. But shooting success? For grouse it was 33.98 percent, but woodcock a whopping 55.99 percent. And remember, though woodcock lie better and fly slower, the majority of woodcock shooting takes place while the leaves are still up, while grouse, not being migratory, are hunted well into the fall when visibility is better.

Of course, as you can imagine, this gang can shoot. But if their success rates can be applied to grouse and woodcock hunters nationwide, you have to flush four grouse to get a shot at one, then you’ll hit one of three you shoot at. That means it takes a dozen grouse in the air to produce one bird in the oven.

For woodcock, you get a shot at one in three. I would have thought that number would be higher, but a number of the cooperators had very low woodcock shot-at numbers – one fellow flushed 123 woodcock and shot at none (there’s a purist for you); another flushed 70 and shot at eight, killing six – that had to be a guy working a pup. With a shooting success rate better than one bird for two shells, it would take only six woodcock up to bring one down – just about twice the grouse success.

Just an FYI: A quick glance through the data shows that those hunting with flushing dogs did about the same as those with pointing breeds on either bird.

[Rick Losey]

"That means it takes a dozen grouse in the air to produce one bird in the oven."

seems I have seen the one out of a dozen as a statistic shown in a couple other sudies of journals kept by grouse hunters.

[charlie cleveland]

these grouse must be some challenge to hunt and shoot...what gauge of shotgun and ammo do you grouse hunters deem the best..and this may be a dumb question to some but is a woodcock and a snipe the same birds...we have snipe in miss. but for sure no grouse...if these grouse are harder to hit than a big phezant then they truly are a worthy opponet... charlie

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if there are statistics on hunter flushes and success rates for those who don't hunt with dogs?

Charlie, you can only compare pheasant hunting with grouse hunting if you're hunting pheasant in 25 ft. tall cornstalks and the pheasants stay below the the tops of the corn while zig-zagging through it at 40 m.p.h. :eek:

[Greg Baehman]

... is a woodcock and a snipe the same birds...we have snipe in miss. but for sure no grouse... charlie

Charlie, woodcock and snipe are two different game birds. As you know snipe are found in wet marshy areas, whereas the habitat of woodcock is generally damp woodlands and tag alders. A Woodcocks diet is nearly 100% earthworms, they probe with their prehensile beak into the soil for their meals. Here's a pic I took the other day of a Woodcock hen, she was on a blacktop road, probably had a nest nearby and let me approach within a couple of feet before flushing and flying off to just the other side of the road.

[Rick Losey]

There is a shot of a lifetime

[Greg Baehman]

...what gauge of shotgun and ammo do you grouse hunters deem the best...charlie

For both ruffed grouse and woodcock my preferred gun is a 28-ga. DHE Parker Reproduction choked IC/M. The country we hunt them in is pretty thick, it is not unusual to have to carry the gun in one hand while pushing branches and trees out of the way in order to get through, so a light well-balanced gun is preferred for all day carrying. I typically shoot 3/4 oz. of #7 1/2's as it doesn't take much to bring them down, the real challenge is getting a good shot off. Here's a pic of the type of habitat that we find Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock in in the Lake States. The 2nd pic is of my English Setter Winston, stopping to point another Woodcock while retrieving a Woodcock. Unfortunately, I missed the shot on the 2nd bird--darn it!

[Dean Romig]

Vermont, NH and Maine cover is similar...



.

[Rick Losey]

Charlie, you can only compare pheasant hunting with grouse hunting if you're hunting pheasant in 25 ft. tall cornstalks and the pheasants stay below the the tops of the corn while zig-zagging through it at 40 m.p.h. :eek:

oh if it were only so easy :whistle:

Finger Lakes cover

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/wccover.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/wccover2.jpg

Charlie - to determine if you are in the right cover, unload your gun and lean it against a tree. Put both hands down to your side, and fall over backwards. If you hit the ground - its not thick enough

[Larry Frey]

Put both hands down to your side, and fall over backwards. If you hit the ground - its not thick enough

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf: I think Charlie is going to stick with pheasant hunting.

[Dave Suponski]

Rick,That was great and oh sooo true....:whistle:

[Dean Romig]

Dave, that clearing is exactly where that turkey launched from last fall :o

[Dave Suponski]

I know Dean. I took this picture right after we finished laughing....:rolleyes:

[charlie cleveland]

fellows that some advice i just got...yall answered my questions to a tee...yall surely do have some pretty country to hunt in up there..it sounds as if mr grouse is one tough cookie...yep think ill stick toquail and dove those grouse are to tough for me....now if i could recall a few years...boy 25 ft corn and falling backwards to see if the covers is rite.... thanks fellows.... charlie

[Rich Anderson]

Hunting Grouse, Woodcock or any upland bird for that matter without a dog is just an armed walk in the woods/fields. A good dog is far more important than the gun, I'd rather hunt with a solid pointer and an Iver Johnson single shot full choked 12GA than a Holland & Holland Royal 20 with short tubes, open chokes and no canine companion.:nono:

[Robin Lewis]

Hunting Grouse, Woodcock or any upland bird for that matter without a dog is just an armed walk in the woods/fields. A good dog is far more important than the gun, I'd rather hunt with a solid pointer and an Iver Johnson single shot full choked 12GA than a Holland & Holland Royal 20 with short tubes, open chokes and no canine companion.:nono:

Boy, that's the truth!:bowdown:

[Greg Baehman]

Hunting Grouse, Woodcock or any upland bird for that matter without a dog is just an armed walk in the woods/fields. A good dog is far more important than the gun, I'd rather hunt with a solid pointer and an Iver Johnson single shot full choked 12GA than a Holland & Holland Royal 20 with short tubes, open chokes and no canine companion.:nono:
I'd even take that one step further...I wouldn't consider hunting without a dog. For me, it's all about the dog.

[Rick Losey]

agreed, the dog, bird and gun trio - the whole thing is not complete if ones missing

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/Osthaustroublecropped-1.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Yup, dogs are fun to watch but, in my opinion, not absolutely necessary to the hunt. It's all a matter of opinion and what one considers as the "essence" of the hunting experience. I've had dogs, Brittanies and labs, and I can easily do without a dog. Most times I prefer an "armed walk in the woods" than to constantly be looking for my dog or listening for his bell or beeper. I trust my own "bird sense" and do acceptably well in pleasing the person who I do it for. No offense intended to anyone who does it primarily for the "dog" experience.

[Rick Losey]

I trust my own "bird sense" and do acceptably well in pleasing the person who I do it for. No offense intended to anyone who does it primarily for the "dog" experience.

No reason for anyone to take offense - I hunted without a dog for a few years.(there is actually one of the few funny stories from a bad marriage in there) I just prefer it, just as I prefer a double over a pump or semi auto. To each their own sport when honestly persued.

Maybe "why a dog" (apologies to the Marx brothers) would make a good thread to while away hot summer days.

[calvin humburg]

Humm, I guess if you have not hunted grouse you have not hunted at all. Swells.

[Daryl Corona]

Hunting Grouse, Woodcock or any upland bird for that matter without a dog is just an armed walk in the woods/fields. A good dog is far more important than the gun, I'd rather hunt with a solid pointer and an Iver Johnson single shot full choked 12GA than a Holland & Holland Royal 20 with short tubes, open chokes and no canine companion.:nono:

Amen brother Rich.:bowdown: That Iver Johnson is nothing more than a single barrel hammer gun. Who other than you can afford to hunt with a H&H Royal 20? You dog guys know the feeling when you make a nice shot on a bird, be it a woodcock, grouse, pheasant,dove, duck,goose, or any gamebird. Your dog dives into the heavy cover and emerges with the bird in his mouth. That moment is all about the dog and you realize that it would'nt be as much fun without him. You break open your favorite double gun then bend down to accept the bird from him. That's what I'm talking about. At that moment life is good.

[Rich Anderson]

I have trudged through the fields hunting Pheasants as a much younger person when there were Pheasants to trudge after and I have busted through the Alder thickets for Grouse all with out the benefit of a dog, but no more. I enjoy a fine shotgun ALMOST as much as good dog work. If you companion is well trained you both will spend more time hunting birds instead of each other. Then there is the issue of finding birds as the worst dog has a better nose than we do (Dean may be an exception:rotf:) and what about the cripples that the dog can find far better than us. I can recall on more than one occasion where the dog has returned with a bird that I though was missed. Last but not least is the pride in hunting with a companion you have trained and cared for possibly for years, given and received unconditional love and respect for each other abilities and faults.

At the end of the day an "Armed walk in the woods" is better than no walk in the woods but a walk in the woods with a fine shotgun and your best friend scouring the cover for scent...priceless.

[calvin humburg]

Well said Richard, Hate to here about Gunner. Last season I was hunting some tall thick stuff lot of birds in it couldn't see out. Shot at a couple we move on hunt some more spots around the tall stuff. Get done, me and Sam head back to the pickup Sam points I walk up nothing flushes something moves Sam grabs it it's a phesant I didn't even know I got. Broke wing broke leg still alive moving on one leg. A fine moment in hunting. I have hunted a lot without dog. But the man dog team is very enjoyable.

[Rich Anderson]

My little buddy Gunner. I have shared a hunt with no finer companion and been privaledged to do so for 14 seasons now.

[Eric Eis]

Rich looks me as if you are bothering Gunner from his nap taking his picture and in that last picture he is saying "Get Lost"

[Eric Eis]

For both ruffed grouse and woodcock my preferred gun is a 28-ga. DHE Parker Reproduction choked IC/M. The country we hunt them in is pretty thick, it is not unusual to have to carry the gun in one hand while pushing branches and trees out of the way in order to get through, so a light well-balanced gun is preferred for all day carrying. I typically shoot 3/4 oz. of #7 1/2's as it doesn't take much to bring them down, the real challenge is getting a good shot off. Here's a pic of the type of habitat that we find Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock in in the Lake States. The 2nd pic is of my English Setter Winston, stopping to point another Woodcock while retrieving a Woodcock. Unfortunately, I missed the shot on the 2nd bird--darn it!

Robin, "Lake states" you hunt Michigan or Wisconsin? If you do why the hell haven't you let us know......Maybe we could have gotten together for a hunt.

[Dean Romig]

Grouse chicks have hatched and most of the best New England coverts are being pounded with torrential downpours...

One of the biggest causes of grouse chick mortality is pnuemonia from these long soaking rains.

[Rick Losey]

Grouse chicks have hatched and most of the best New England coverts are being pounded with torrential downpours...

One of the biggest causes of grouse chick mortality is pnuemonia from these long soaking rains.


sadly too true

as one biologist said

"a wet chick is a dead chick"

[ed good]

nice thread! brings back lots of memories...

[Justin Julian]

I grew up in CT and VT where I hunted grouse and woodcock every chance I got. I now live in Idaho, which is thick with ruffed grouse, as well as blue, spruce and some sage grouse in the south east. Sadly, woodcock do not live this far west, and I do miss them every Fall. Equally sadly, grouse get no respect as a game bird out here. Because they are so plentiful, they are too easy to bag, and are commonly disparaged as "road chickens". Everyone but me it seems simply drives the loggging roads in pickups and four wheelers, and shoots them on the ground. Many bag limits are filled with 22 rifles. I have had to stop my truck more times than I can recount to keep from running over a mature ruff that just wouldn't give the road. Many guys I know, who plink dozens of grouse off the back roads with 410s each year, were actually astonished to learn that some of us shoot at them on the wing. They always thought that if a bird flushed, it had gotten away. The thought of shooting at a flying grouse never occured to them! Needless to say, they can't comprehend why I take a dog and hike through thick brush to shoot flushing grouse. If anybody else in my county does that too, I have yet to hear of it. Amazingly, these ruffs are the exact same species of wily, wild flushing grouse that I hunted in CT and VT, and once they do take to the wing, they are just as challenging to hit. But from the way they act on the gravel roads, you'd never believe it. The larger spruce and blue grouse, which inhabit higher elevations, are even dumber. If you bother to flush one of them up, they usually just land on a tree limb ten feet above you and sit there clucking. I won't even tell you how many times I stood there throwing sticks and rocks to get one to flush out of the tree for a sporting shot. The underrated grouse in Idaho have to be seen to be believed. In a high bird number year, one can easily see 20 or more in an hour of driving gravel roads on a rainy day.
Here's a pic of my deceased old lab Hoss on his last hunt, with a couple grouse taken behind my cabin. My apologies for not using a Parker that day. I like to make it challenging with a 28 gauge, and I don't yet have a Parker in that gauge.

[charlie cleveland]

very good storey...i wish we had more gamebirds in ole miss... the quail have really whisled a lot this year been several years since ive heard many a whisleling... charlie

[Justin Julian]

Glad to hear that it might be a good quail year down in ole Miss.

The western mountain states like Idaho get the outdoor press for big game species like elk and mule deer. But the real untold story out here is the diversity of wild game birds. On the same hunt, one can conceiveably bag wild pheasants, California quail, grouse, huns, doves, chukar, turkey and waterfowl. Several years ago I was lucky enough to accumulate a mixed bag of wild pheasants, huns, quail and ruffed grouse in one hunt. It made for quite a photo, but unfortunately, that was before my days with digital cameras and Parkers. I hope to repeat that experience this Fall with a Parker DHE.

[Justin Julian]

We just had one of the wettest Junes on record. Our rivers are currently at flood stage. We've never seen so much rain this late in the summer. Unfortunately, all these down-pours spells another bad upland bird hatch this year. Has anyone experienced a good nesting season in their part of the country this year?

[Larry Stauch]

"The western mountain states like Idaho get the outdoor press for big game species like elk and mule deer. But the real untold story out here is the diversity of wild game birds. On the same hunt, one can conceiveably bag wild pheasants, California quail, grouse, huns, doves, chukar, turkey and waterfowl. Several years ago I was lucky enough to accumulate a mixed bag of wild pheasants, huns, quail and ruffed grouse in one hunt. It made for quite a photo, but unfortunately, that was before my days with digital cameras and Parkers. I hope to repeat that experience this Fall with a Parker DHE"

Don't take this wrong, but that's why the bird hunting in Idaho is so good...we DON'T TALK about it.

[Dean Romig]

Folks who have spent a bit of time in Northern New Hampshire this year are reporting many large healthy broods in flight already.