Thinking about going Damascus

[Jeff Elder]

Looking at a GH #1 frame 12 gauge damascus if the barrels check safe. Any tips on shooting one or for reloading shells?

Thanks

Jeff

[Dean Romig]

There’s nothing different about shooting and caring for a Parker with Damascus barrels vs fluid-pressed steel barrels. Same precautions in every respect.

The real bonus is, you get to look at and admire the intricate and beautiful Damascus pattern whenever you hold it.





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[Mike Koneski]

+1 to Dean's comment. :clap:

[Drew Hause]

This might help Jeff
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/is-my-gun-safe-what-load-was-my-gun-designed-to-shoot.366087/

Checking the barrels for safety means having the barrels evaluated by a barrel specialist with the interest, equipment (wall thickness gauge and bore scope), and expertise to properly do so. If the smith can't tell you wall thicknesses from breech to muzzle, or states "should be safe with low brass", you need another opinion.

In light of the age of the wood (not the barrels) it would be reasonable to stick with 1 oz. at 1200 fps target loads. And of course NO STEEL.

I clean my pattern welded barrels with a brass Tornado brush.
https://www.proshotproducts.com/12-GA-SHOTGUN-TORNADO-BRUSH_p_715.html
In the unlikely event that the standard stainless steel brush would fracture, the sharp edge will gouge a damascus barrel.

[Garry L Gordon]

Jeff, less is more… or, certainly, enough. Take care of the history you’re shooting and someone down the road will thank you.

[Jeff Elder]

Thank you for all the responses

[Mills Morrison]

Go for it. And Dean is right

[Keith Doty]

Jeff, I shoot a 1901 "G" Damascus 12 on a regular basis, at the Adam's Cup last weekend as a mater of fact. I shoot 1 oz. loads tested at Precision, mild and pleasant to shoot. Will whack a pigeon or Helice, powders clays when I hit'em, great with bismuth for ducks. If the barrels are in good condition my big worry is the wood and the aged shooter! I clean with a brass brush and Hoppes, light oil patch last.
Reloading 2 1/2" Cheditte hulls with 16.8 gr. International, BP's CS12 wad with a 1/8" 20 ga. cork for filler, 1 oz. of 7 1/2 shot. Tested @ 1193 FPS and 5970 PSI. A pussycat to shoot and it WORKS!

[CraigThompson]

I shoot probably more Damascus/twist barrels than I do fluid steel ! Damascus 8 , Damascus and twist 10’s , fluid steel 12’s and fluid steel 16’s . I’ve liquidated the 20’s and 28 .

[Stan Hoover]

Years ago I saw a 50 gallon steel drum that was full of ''Blown Damascus''
Steel barrels. I read the warnings on the shot shell boxes, ''Don't use in Twist
Steel or Damascus Barrels, I VALUE MY HANDS AND FINGERS, so I would Never
Shoot Twist or Damascus Steel Barreled Guns. In my neck of the woods if you are at a club with one and they know it, they won't allow you to shoot .

Harry

90% of my shooting is with Damascus, twist or Laminate barrels, it just has to be respected, as any gun should be.
And they’re beautiful, what’s not to like.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Thanks for that load Keith, I filed it in my reloading notebook. Unfortunately, have only a little over 1 pound International left. I use it for 3/4 oz 16 ga loads in 21/2" cheddite hulls and DR16 wad.

[Dean Romig]

DelGrego, when he worked on the Parker project at Remington in Ilion, said he remembered seeing two or three 55 gallon drums of Damascus barrels that were destined for scrap.

I shoot Damascus and Laminated barrels most of the time without even a remote thought of their safety. If I have checked them for wall thickness and pits I am convinced they are safe for me to shoot again and again.

I have a nice 1898 DH that was made with beautiful F/F Titanic Steel barrels but I love the beauty of Damascus so I bought a nice set of IC/IMOD Damascus barrels and had Russ Bickel fit them to my gun.

I shoot either set as often as I like.




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[Drew Hause]

At the risk of repeating myself (again ;) ), but so is Harry
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit

I always warn the rest of the squad shooting skeet at Ben Avery that they better stand back 'cause "these old barrels may blow at any time".
Doesn't help my shooting but seems to negatively influence theirs' :)

[Dean Romig]

I always warn the rest of the squad shooting skeet at Ben Avery that they better stand back 'cause "these old barrels may blow at any time".
Doesn't help my shooting but seems to negatively influence theirs' :)

:rotf::biglaugh::rotf:





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[Dean Romig]

Every so offen I read about People who have ''Pet Rattlesnake's'' or some other poisonous reptile, the guy says ''He's a good old Snake'', than Wham,
the guy makes the ''OBITUARY'' list. He never taught the snake would bite him! Shooting those Twist & Damascus barrels is the same thing. One day ''BOOM'',
HELL, what's a couple of missing fingers. BY the way , I like Damascus pattern barrels the way they look. To bad you can't put those pattern's on Tough Steel Barrels.

Harry

Yup- Different strokes Harry. :)





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[Mike Franzen]

Is there any research confirming Twist or Damascus is inherently unsafe to shoot? Seems there is a multitude of people shooting them, myself included. A barrel burst can occur in fluid steel too. I wonder if there is any data, say over the last 20 years on the number of blown barrels broken down by what steel they are made of.

[Mills Morrison]

I am living proof Damascus is safe with adequate wall thickness

[Dean Romig]

No Mike, there has been no (scientific) research confirming Twist or Damascus is/are inherantly unsafe to shoot. Anyone who states so is simply expressing an opinion or repeating the opinion of others. In the Double Gun Journal Sherman Bell conducted his own tests in order to discover 'burst' or 'rupture' pressures . No, his teste weren't ultra scientific but he used pressure sensing instruments and measured walls and exterrior measurements after each set of shots fired at increasing chamber pressures. Sure, some barrels ruptured or became deformed but these exceeded 31,000 psi.





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[Drew Hause]

There has been original research measuring the tensile strength of a variety of pattern welded tubes, several contributed by PGCA members
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

There were possibly 40 pattern welded tubes donated to 'Zircon' without apparent follow through.

There ARE failure analyses, including Ron Graham's report of Sherman Bells ruptured GH Damascus barrels and VH Vulcan Steel barrels, and the PCGA has a copyrighted and unpublished formal metallurgical failure analysis of those barrels.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

And no "orange lace" from mythical internal corrosion in these freshly cut tubes ready for tensile testing and composition analysis

https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Steel-Strength/i-BjpK63V/0/C75HjW4xgWzpkD7jxBmWRckbKXccf63w2xMLhzX44/XL/Strength%204-XL.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Steel-Strength/i-BjpK63V/A)

And this from Mike George, Technical Editor, “ShootingUK”
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/what-is-fluid-steel-and-is-it-stronger-than-damascus-steel-13767
“In the USA there is one chap who is active on websites who believes that all Damascus steel barrels are so dangerous they should be destroyed.”
http://www.randywakeman.com/WhyYouShouldStayAwayfromDamascusBarrels.htm
“But then you are likely to get piffle like this from a nation that does not have gun barrel proof legislation.”
(Piffle: “pseudo-scientific trivial nonsense, baloney”)

The Birmingham Proof House routinely proves pattern welded barrels. I have no information on the failure rate.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Drew. I knew you’d come on and set me (all of us) straight.
Always good to hear from your expertise.





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[CraigThompson]

I have nothing against a person that doesn’t care to fire guns with Damascus or twist barrels that’s their prerogative , however on the other hand if I’m shooting them and someone doesn’t like it the best thing they can do is not stay around . I was shown an article from
The American Rifleman once that was written back in the late forties or early to mid fifties . If my memory serves P.O. Ackley wrote it . He took four Parker’s all with good bores , tight etc . Two were fluid steel and two were damascus . He started loading below factory standards trying same loads in all four working his way up to factory smokeless pressures . Then he started exceeding pressure velocity etc . He burst the two fluid steel barrels and went on with the two damascus guns until he thought he’d sprung the actions enough to make lock up not safe I think the article said . Anyway those guns I’m sure had far better bore condition barrels than a good many now .

[Drew Hause]

Thinking more about Mike's question, IMHO the Birmingham Proof House's frequent proving of pattern welded barrels does constitute an ongoing "experiment'; though without controlling for uniformity of wall thickness.

Great Britain joined the Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards in 1980 but the new Rules of Proof were not introduced until 1984. Lead Crushers were used until 1989.

The CIP transducer “Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure” is 850 BAR = 12,328 PSI for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 740 BAR = 10,733 PSI, and “Mean Proof Pressure” of 960 BAR = 13,924 PSI.
900 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 780 BAR = 11,313 PSI and Proof pressure of 1020 BAR = 14,794 PSI.
High Performance (Magnum) MSIP is 1200 BAR = 17,405 PSI for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 PSI, and Mean Proof Pressure of 1320 BAR = 19,145 PSI.

Damascus barrels reproved in 1992 at 1200 BAR (WHAT were they thinking?!? :shock: )

https://photos.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-7ZfjMTQ/0/N9JCgRcRsxstm49tGnpBJrdSncTf3JKwwSnskxCb/S/M%26R%209-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-7ZfjMTQ/A)

2006 British Rules of Proof changed the process slightly
https://www.gunproof.com/downloads/rules-proofing
Part IV, “The Proof Load”, Number 27, Part A
Calls for a load of 30% over mean service pressure at a point 17mm or 25mm (about 1”), and at a point 162mm (6.38”) from the breech face a load of 30% over mean service pressure (at that point as determined by the Proof House).
The powder used in proof loads is not specified.

AFAIK the Proof House has declined to reveal the powder used, or if this is one proof load shot or two proof load shots.

[Dean Romig]

I suspect if those Damascus barrels were faulty they would certainly have known it at 1,200 BAR.
This just reinforces my belief in the inherent strength of pattern-welded barrels.
Thanks Drew!





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[Steve McCarty]

90% of my shooting is with Damascus, twist or Laminate barrels, it just has to be respected, as any gun should be.
And they’re beautiful, what’s not to like.

For 20+ years I read the articles in Double Gun Mag written by Sherman Bell wherein he described over loading damascus barrels, trying to get them to blow up. He was very detailed in his studies. He over loaded damascus shotgun barrels of many makers and they did not blow up. He even honed some L.C. Smith barrels to paper thin and even then they would not let go. Therefore I shoot damascus/twist shotguns confidently. I also think they look neat.

[Dean Romig]

I agree 100% Steve.





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[Drew Hause]

Craig: I have the American Rifleman Author and Subject Index 1951-1960 and it does not list an article by Ackley regarding Damascus barrels.
A Google search for 'P.O. Ackley on Damascus Barrels' found nothing.
There is a long opinion piece by E.H. Harrison in the January 1956 "Dope Bag" which repeats the (now disproven) idea of hidden internal corrosion, flaws and inclusions making Damascus barrels intrinsically unsafe.

[Steve McCarty]

I shoot a Parker GH with damascus barrels. Also an LC Smith O grade. I shoot them like a shoot any shotgun. Things have been working fine so far.

[Steve McCarty]

90% of my shooting is with Damascus, twist or Laminate barrels, it just has to be respected, as any gun should be.
And they’re beautiful, what’s not to like.

I'm an old man. I have been warned all of my life to avoid damascus or twist barrels to the point that I never saw anyone shooting one. No one would go near any of those old tubes. Then I read Sherman Bell's DGJ writings and I began to change my mind. I bought a Parker GH (a decade ago). Nice engraving, but not too much of it, wonderful wood. I shot it with RST first and then switched to standard target loads. Today I own a damascus LC Smith, a Parker and a W.C. Scott is supposed to be in the mail. Truthfully I prefer damascus. I like the way it looks and old guns sing to me. Moreover I have never heard of a single damascus or twist barrel letting go. I know that some did years ago, but today? If it is happening, I have not heard about it.

[Steve McCarty]

I have nothing against a person that doesn’t care to fire guns with Damascus or twist barrels that’s their prerogative , however on the other hand if I’m shooting them and someone doesn’t like it the best thing they can do is not stay around . I was shown an article from
The American Rifleman once that was written back in the late forties or early to mid fifties . If my memory serves P.O. Ackley wrote it . He took four Parker’s all with good bores , tight etc . Two were fluid steel and two were damascus . He started loading below factory standards trying same loads in all four working his way up to factory smokeless pressures . Then he started exceeding pressure velocity etc . He burst the two fluid steel barrels and went on with the two damascus guns until he thought he’d sprung the actions enough to make lock up not safe I think the article said . Anyway those guns I’m sure had far better bore condition barrels than a good many now .

Sherman Bell cheerfully over loaded damascus barrels trying to blow them up. He loaded a Parker GH to 30,000 psi and it kept on shooting. Now most modern loads are around 12,000 psi some more some less. RST I think is around 9,000 psi. 30,000 is WAY over what we normally run into. Bell even honed an LC Smith barrel to what he called "paper thin" and tried to get it to blow. It did not.

[Mills Morrison]

As hard to believe as it is, the Damascus mythology was a well orchestrated hoax.

[Craig Larter]

But for the collector/shooter of Damascus Parker's they still bring a discount to steel barreled examples which is a added bonus for those of us that prefer Damascus.

[Harry Collins]

After Sherman Bell blew up Dr Gaddy"s and my Parkers I shoot twist, Damascus, and Fluid Steel Parkers without trepidation. All 12 gauge guns are shot with 1oz or less @ 1200 fps or below. These are off the shelf Winchester and other brands. One of my favorite Parkers is an 1881 (144 years old) 12 gauge Lifter with Twist barrels. I beat Will Curlin left handed with it shooting WW 1oz @ 1180 fps. As far as #1 Frame Parkers, I have three. If I'm shooting a round of Spoeting Clays I like 7/8 os loads as there is less muzzle rise. Fiocchi Exacta Target Line Low Recoil 12 Gauge 2-3/4 #8 Shot 7/8oz Lead 1200fps