Originality and collectibility...

[Greg Baehman]

What alterations, if any are acceptable to the advanced collector?

For example, let's say there's a high condition grade 3 or better gun available that letters as righteous--except the stock has been bent from its original drop of 3" D@H to a 2 1/2" drop. The gun is obviously no longer "original"...I know what I'd do, but what does the advanced collector do, pass on it or snap it up?

[Bruce Day]

Greg, I don't know if I am an advanced collector, but that drop issue makes no difference to me. The biggest issues to a collector are condition, generally meaning case colors, and original configuration.....no chopped barrels, altered comb or grip stocks unless its a factory change. There are some who want only skeleton butts or dogs head butt plates, no padded butts. I personally prefer a skeleton butt however I can live with a padded butt if the rest of the gun is compelling enough. then of course, the smaller the bore and the higher the grade, the more the interest. I am not a micro bore guy and prefer the 16's and 20's, and even a light 12.

[Kevin McCormack]

When I found out my lovely 1891 Holland & Holland Royal Grade had been re-case colored and barrels reblued about 10 times, I howled, "Oh, No! It isn't 'original'. The driven birds never knew the difference and I'm looking forward to using it enough that it will need an 11th 'refresh."

[todd allen]

A refinish on a fine English gun that has given 100 years or so of service, is not a shock, or unexpected. For whatever reason, the classic American gun market plays by different rules.
During the season, a Holland and Holland Royal is my every day "go to" upland gun. High grade Parkers are more of a special occasion gun.
Of course, special occasions happen!

[Bill Murphy]

I might have one or two Parkers that have been freshened up a bit.

[David Dwyer]

Greg
I don't know if I qualify as a purist,but do not want any changes in the gun since it left the factory. I will consider a modified gun but will discount it depending on the mod. If the stock has been bent to modern demensions the discount would be minor but then the gun has probably been shot more and the loss in condition would be the main consideration. I have some guns with a lot of drop and just put a pad on them and shoot away. JMHO
David

[Bruce Day]

David knows his guns and represents the purist school of thought, and I am generally in that camp also. I like them as they were made.

The comments about English guns are interesting but I thought we were talking about Parkers. However, I do see some fine Brit guns at Flatwater, and just like Parkers, every time the gun is redone, there is some loss of engraving or stock detail. A favourite form of recreation of the Brits seem to be to hone those bores and get them shiny.....well, you sure see a lot with thin barrels. I really liked a little Dickson but those barrels are not thick to begin with and then you take off 005 in a honing and you are down to 020 and I don't want any part of it. Maybe that's the reason you see so many Brit guns that are sleeved.

[Kevin McCormack]

Greg didn't say anything about Parkers, Hollands & Hollands, Boatwrights, Mossburgs, or any other make of gun - the question was what alterations are acceptable to the "advanced" collector.

When a Parker or any other gun is properly redone, a complete refinishing should include both barrel and metalwork; e.g., recut the checkering, repoint the engraving, etc.

The British gun trade hones shotgun bores for a variety of reasons; mostly to repolish after removing pits, minor corrosion, or to restore concentricity. It has nothing to do with being a form of "recreation" - it is a make or break process that largely determines if the gun can be safely put back into service.

Whatever Dickson you were looking at has thin barrel walls as originally built for a very good reason: the gun, like most better English guns, was purpose-built for a customer as to barrel length, weight, stock length. When it left the maker it fit his needs exactly.

You can't visually evalate what a barrel wall's thickness is by looking at it; precise measurement is the key. If it needs .005 (?) taken out of it, it can be safely done if the resulting thickness meets the proofing requirements of the original gun.

Compared to the total volume of British guns on the market today, the incidence of sleeving is a decided minority. Out-of-proof, destroyed barrels, or barrels unsafe to take out that last few thousandths of an inch to put the gun back in proof are major reasons.

By the way, where the hell is Flatwater?

[Bruce Day]

Flatwater is out here in Nebraska. A bunch of good old boys from east coast to Hawaii get together, bring Purdey's, H&H's, Parker's, Colt 1911's, Marlin bolt actions, Dicksons, Fabbris, Mod 12s you know, the usual stuff. Frolic in a corn field, eat hunks of beef, drink whiskey, shoot sporting clays, wear jeans, overalls, ties, Hawaiian shirts, drive pickups and Jags, just farm boys having fun. People shoot each others guns and there will be a line of guys five deep shooting protection. Side bets sometimes occur. We tell Larry Brown to hold it down.

Its a plains kind of thing.

[charlie cleveland]

ive seen one of those single barrels before but they are to much gun for small game... imop.. can any body come to this shootout or is it invite only.... thanks charlie

[Bruce Day]

People from the south can come and regularly do if they can put up with northerners.

That is a goose gun, not for small game. We have big geese out here. It uses steel shot and there have not been any reports of harm to the firing tube.

Its the same weekend as the PGCA Southern sxs. Southeast Nebraska. No vendors on site so your chances of buying the new Brit gun for $70,000 are a little slim.

bday@daylaw.us

[Richard Flanders]

Sounds like a perfect venue for my good friend with an ether-power spud gun that will shoot a baking potato over 300ft...

[Bruce Day]

If a person is wondering how the market treats restored guns versus original guns, take a look at pp 187,188 of the newly mailed Julia Auction Catalog.

A "desirable" original 12ga 30" DHE is estimated to go for $5000 to $8000.

An "outstanding" original 12ga 30" VHE is estimated to go for $5000 to $7,500.

A "wonderfully restored" 12ga 30" DHE is estimated to go for $3000 to $5000.

Julia's estimates are generally quite accurate.

So would it be a good financial return to buy say a 12ga DHE in silver frame condition for say $3000 then spend another $3000 for a professional stock refinish, get the frame re case colored, the barrels reblued, the gun spiffed up for a total investment of $6000?

[Bill Murphy]

Richard, back in the early nineties, when spud spitters were in vogue, we used them extensively at a range in Delaware where spud fall was not a problem. The thing to do was to hit a high four on the skeet range with a hand held spitter. A couple of guys actually got the job done a time or two but it sure took a bunch of missed targets for each one hit. Even the close misses were exciting. A spud gun on the skeet field will teach a shooter follow through for sure.

[Larry Frey]

Richard/Bill,
Those potato launchers were a lot of fun. A shot of hair spray, hit the lighter and watch it go. We used to try hitting crows with it. Mine was retired after I brought it to work one day and let an employee try it and it cost the company $800.00 in dental work.:crying:

[Greg Baehman]

Bruce, the three examples you've referenced in the Julia catalog reinforces what you and other advanced collectors have been saying all along regarding originality and refinishing. Another gun listed, Lot 1216---a totally refinished 20-ga. DHE, 28" bbls., DT, SG, SPL, with a skeleton butt plate and good dimensions further illustrates that, the pre-auction estimate is $5500-$7500---which isn't all that much more than a comparable Repro. If this gun had it's original finish, it undoubtedly would bring 2 to 3 times than what it will in it's present refinished condition.

[Bruce Day]

Yes. That's the story and that's how the market treats restored guns and these are well done guns. If they are tiger striped case colors or otherwise a refinish that can be found fault with, the resale value is even less and in many cases, less than a silver framed original.

It doesn't matter whether it should be that way, doesn't matter how Brit guns are treated, it simply is, and the market is too big to change easily .

[David Dwyer]

Bruce
That says it all
David

[Bill Murphy]

This "refinished Parker shotgun" is actually a good thing. A person who knows nothing about the Parker mystique can get into the vintage gun or Parker game for a reasonable amount of money and either shoot at vintage events or go hunting with the best gun on the market, guns with character. There are thousands of guys out there who don't know how to penetrate this secret society. Refinished guns are the way for them to do it. There are a whole covey of shooters in the gun clubs where I shoot that have been introduced to the use and ownership of Parker shotguns by me, Kevin McCormack, Paul Shields, Jon Swindle, and several others who have some knowledge of these guns. We all shoot non collectable Parker shotguns and know where to buy more.

[Bruce Day]

There is no secret society. All a person has to do is let it be known that he is looking for a particular gun, is serious, not a tire kicker and will step up and the opportunities will come.

We have had new collectors come in, make clear their committment to acquire at the upper levels and quickly reach that level. Those who demonstrate that they are always looking for a bargain, who back out of deals, or who otherwise demonstrate lack of seriousness, find it hard to get opportunities. Bidding at a James Julia auction or making a trip to Duluth hardly requires membership in any kind of a secret society.

For the others, maybe they are content with something else, or not able or willing to get the top end guns and that is fine. Everybody finds their level of committment. There is nothing about having a passion for Parkers that requires a person to prefer high condition guns. Some great friends of mine do not have anything more than a couple worn V's yet love the guns and enjoy their history.

There are serious buyers across the whole range of social and economic strata. Those with less resources just pick their acquisitions very carefully and fewer.

[David Holes]

I thought this was the secret society. PGCA that is. I started in winchester country. Parkers are scarce out here. Bedlans has a few on the wall for display, but not for sale. I would love to have Bills connections for nice guns. I'm sure he has earned his position in the Parker world.

[Bill Murphy]

The "secret society" I was referring to is the vintage gun shooting game. The inexpensive Parker game is not a secret society at all. I see wonderful field worn Parkers on internet sites every day at very fair prices. As I say to my friends every time we are at a gun show, "If I didn't own a shotgun, I sure could buy a few here today." I have a few nice collector Parkers, but the one I have shot the most for the last few years is a brown VH 12 gauge that I bought for $400.00 at a bad gun show about ten years ago. In its present condition, I would have a hard time getting my money back. Such guns are not hard to find.

[lee r moege]

That pretty well "splains" my position on the DHE 20 I just finished reworking. (see pix in restoration section.) I want to shoot, use, but not abuse a small bore Parker that cost me less than a repro and is very serviceable. I too like "virgins" and have some, but prefer to kiss and mud wrestle with a gal who has been behind a few good pointers in her day. I still take out one of the unmolested gals for a Sunday afternon at clays on occasion but am very careful to make it mostly "show and tell". Lee.:bigbye: