Min Bbl Thickness - for woods usage (grouse/wc)

[Katrina Wood]

Hi - I see a lot of discussion about minimum bbl thickness in terms of safety with vintage guns (so the gun doesn't blow up) but it's something I've seen less within the context of being able to handle hunting usage, say in a grouse/woodcock situation, where bonking on trees in the thick stuff happens. Do I need to worry about barrels denting if they are say, thick enough to be safe (I'm here going to call that ~25 thou for a 12)

While this isn't a Parker-specific question, I've been getting the "classic double" bug and I figure this group has the expertise to answer this question from evaluating old guns that you are buying more than the "just get a Mossberg pump!" crowd.

Is say 30 or even 25 thou MWT enough to not be overly "delicate" in the woods? I have never dented my barrels on my modern guns, but these things are chambered for up to 3.5"(!?) so I would assume they are much beefier-barreled (and they feel like it). If I go to a lightweight vintage double (with sufficient MWT for safety, etc.) am I going to come out of the woods with a dented mess? i realize lots of types of hunting and shooting in general are just open spaces/trails, so this might not be an issue they think about.

Thanks!

[Dean Romig]

Hello Katrina -

.0025” - .0030” barrel wall thickness is generally considered safe for most all upland hunting situations.
You are not likely to dent your barrels except in situations like accidental falling or dropping your gun. Lightly bumping them into trees/saplings in a normal day of hunting will most likely not dent them but it makes sense to check them over while cleaning at the end of a day’s hunting.
Have fun - be safe - and use reasonable low pressure upland or target loads.





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[edgarspencer]

Hello Katrina -

.0025” - .0030” .

He means .025 - .030", He's just old

[Louis Rotelli]

Dean Your decimals are in the wrong place .025 = 25 thou. and that wall thickness as you say is plenty safe. As for handling guns safely in the woods the dent depends on a lot of things and the results would be different in every case. If you are swinging on a bird and slam your bbls against a tree they might not dent, but drop your bbla against the corner of a stone fireplace hearth or similar structure on a stone wall then they will probably dent regardless of the mwt

[Greg Baehman]

One could put a dent in virtually any vintage gun depending upon how hard you're whacking it into a tree, how hard you've fallen or how unlucky you've been. There are oodles and oodles of vintage doubles with <.025 MWT that have survived a century or more of usage with nary a dent.


Here's what one vintage gun dealer opined in a post in these pages several years ago:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=78456#post78456

[Daniel Carter]

He means .025 - .030", He's just old

We are ALL old, so? Most of the dents i have seen in which the cause is known are from dropped while cleaning or falls while crossing stone walls. I have hit many trees without leaving a mark on the barrel.

[Katrina Wood]

Thanks guys for the advice and sharing your wisdom - I will try and not fret too much and I look forward to the joys of carrying a nice light vintage double in the woods!

I fall kind of a lot but especially early season... but I am hard wired to protect the gun... This fall I took a few good diggers but fell straight down on my knees with the gun held up high 😆 so knock on wood I’ve swung into a few trees and bumped into things but never fallen on to my gun or dropped it 🤞

[Frank Cronin]

I've been getting the "classic double" bug and I figure this group has the expertise to answer this question from evaluating old guns that you are buying more than the "just get a Mossberg pump!" crowd.


Just curious. You never said what classic double gun you are using for hunting? Parker, Fox, LeFever, Ithaca? Or something from across the pond?

Hope you get a lot of birds and be safe.

[Katrina Wood]

Just curious. You never said what classic double gun you are using for hunting? Parker, Fox, LeFever, Ithaca? Or something from across the pond?

Hope you get a lot of birds and be safe.

Hi Frank, I just pulled the trigger on my first sxs, a few days ago, it's a little 20 ga francotte that seemed like a great deal for what I was looking for. Great shape, but with some stock modifications that I think will suit me well (and made it more affordable). So, maybe not a "classic" by everyone's standards but a neat old double that I think *should* be a superb G/W gun for me. She will be fed a strict diet of RST/comparable low pressure shells, whatever is suitable once barrels and everything are checked out.

The process of researching/shopping for the gun has been a real journey that's just begun, and the more I learn, the more I realize it's less and less about "my next bird gun"....

[Dean Romig]

Francotte is a great gun and had, for a long time, been underappreciated. In the last decade or so the prices on good francottes have been continually rising. Some friends own some dandy little small bore Francottes and they love them. So congratulations on finding one that fits your needs.






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[Harold Lee Pickens]

Nothing wrong with Francotte's. I'd buy a 20 in a heartbeat. I had a 12 that I traded off for a GH 16

[Frank Srebro]

Just a comment fwiw from one who's long been interested in vintage doubles and their gunsmithing; it was decades ago when a mentor told me that Parkers have "soft barrels" (steel hardness). Surely a subjective statement and I kind of forgot it until I invested in tooling to do vintage-type re-choking on makers that did taper chokes in their guns. Since then I've opened tight chokes in Foxes, steel-barreled Parkers and Syracuse Lefevers, along with Ithaca, LC Smith and some other makers. It's easy to gauge the cut rate while turning a piloted taper choke reamer from the breech end, and ime Parker steel barrels typically are easiest to ream while opening chokes with that setup. Also, LCS barrels are usually at the other end of the range, much harder. Now, regarding barrel denting while guns are in the field, woods hunting, you can infer what that might mean.

Again this post is merely for info/fwiw. Please, I'm not looking to do tapered-choke work except on my own guns and on occasion for good friends.

[Mike Koneski]

We are ALL old, so?

Not me, I'm not old yet!!!! :nono:

[Dean Romig]

:biglaugh:





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[Mike Koneski]

:biglaugh:





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I'm probably 15-20 years younger than the rest of youse guys!!!! Just 'cause I have replacement parts and am scheduled for another one soon does not make me old, just well used!! :rotf:

[Drew Hause]

Just to clarify, that .020 - .025" MWT refers to the distal 1/3 of the barrel. Which of course is most likely to get whacked.

Thanks (mostly) to Dave Suponski we have composition data on a few Parker barrels
A pre - WWI Parker “Titanic” barrel - AISI 1030 with low concentrations of nickel and chromium.
A pre - WWI Parker “Trojan” barrel - AISI 1035.
A pre - WWI Parker “Vulcan” - AISI 1015
A post-WWI Parker “Vulcan” barrel - AISI 1030.
A “Parker Steel” barrel was non-standard Acid Bessemer Resulphurized Rephosphorized AISI 1109 low carbon Steel.

Lower carbon (in general) = softer steel. Scroll down about 2/3 here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Comparative results are summarized at the bottom

[Katrina Wood]

I got the gun! Fortunately a friend was able to check MWT for me, and I should be good at .035/.030” and gun choke is CYL and SKT so ideal for woodcock and grouse! Dimensions of stock could not be more ideal either! Literally could not have done better had I ordered a bespoke gun ... I have never had a gun that truly fits, and I am beyond tickled! 5# 5 oz of delightful little doublegun JOY!!!

Now I just need to get my deer so I can get out in the woods with it!!!

Thanks for all the helpful comments guys!

[John Dallas]

Pictures, Pictures! We gotta see it!

[David Deck]

This has been a good discussion on thinner barrel walls. Now, does anyone know a reliable gunsmith who will backbone to leave the walls a little thinner than 0.030? I have a nice 12 gauge DHE on a #1 frame that is still too muzzle heavy with wall thickness of 0.031. I would like it backboard to say 0.027-8, but can 't find anyone to do it.

[Katrina Wood]

This has been a good discussion on thinner barrel walls. Now, does anyone know a reliable gunsmith who will backbone to leave the walls a little thinner than 0.030? I have a nice 12 gauge DHE on a #1 frame that is still too muzzle heavy with wall thickness of 0.031. I would like it backboard to say 0.027-8, but can 't find anyone to do it.

I wonder how much weight that would save? Back when I worked at the pipeline company I made an excel program that could calculate this exact thing (although with somewhat larger bore sizes 😂)

[David Deck]

Thanks Katrina. As a rough idea, backboring by 0.005 in 12 gauge for 28"barrels saves about 0.7 oz per barrel (or 1.4 oz for a 2 barrel gun). This doesn't sound like much, but you can readily feel the difference if you will tape a 1.4 oz weight to the middle of your barrels and practice swinging it. Remember that you are removing weight from the entire barrel, hence the need to place the weight in the middle.

On this same vein, and since this is a Parker site, I'm a fan of having a much longer forcing cone bored into my Parkers. One flaw of Parkers, compare to the Fox, is their heavy and long frame. Lengthening the forcing cone does nothing to reduce the actual frame weight, but by reducing the weight of the barrels over the forward portion of the frame, the dynamic weight of the frame is reduced. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a nice Parker than a Purdey, but our English counterparts were not stupid in fluid shotgun design.

Thanks again
mtbirdhunter

[Dean Romig]

This has been a good discussion on thinner barrel walls. Now, does anyone know a reliable gunsmith who will backbone to leave the walls a little thinner than 0.030? I have a nice 12 gauge DHE on a #1 frame that is still too muzzle heavy with wall thickness of 0.031. I would like it backboard to say 0.027-8, but can 't find anyone to do it.

Have you tried Mike Orlen in Amherst MA ?





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[edgarspencer]

This has been a good discussion on thinner barrel walls. Now, does anyone know a reliable gunsmith who will backbone to leave the walls a little thinner than 0.030? I have a nice 12 gauge DHE on a #1 frame that is still too muzzle heavy with wall thickness of 0.031. I would like it backboard to say 0.027-8, but can 't find anyone to do it.

Briley does it.

[Garth Gustafson]

David, rather than messing with your barrels why not just add weight to the stock.

[David Deck]

Thanks Dean. I'll call Mike this week.

[David Deck]

Edgar,

I know Jess Briley did this work at less than 0.030 MWT for me several times, but the last I checked his successors wanted to be lawyer-proof at 0.035.

[David Deck]

Thanks Garth. That's certainly a good way to move the weight (balance point) rearward, but now at age 76 I'm not looking to carry more total weight while following my youngish GSP.

[Garry L Gordon]

I got the gun! Fortunately a friend was able to check MWT for me, and I should be good at .035/.030” and gun choke is CYL and SKT so ideal for woodcock and grouse! Dimensions of stock could not be more ideal either! Literally could not have done better had I ordered a bespoke gun ... I have never had a gun that truly fits, and I am beyond tickled! 5# 5 oz of delightful little doublegun JOY!!!

Now I just need to get my deer so I can get out in the woods with it!!!

Thanks for all the helpful comments guys!

Don't trade it! It's the folly of many who think they can find a better gun. Better to just add to your collection. Good shooting!

[Reggie Bishop]

Don't trade it! It's the folly of many who think they can find a better gun. Better to just add to your collection. Good shooting!

Those are words of wisdom.