Question on Gun Sales

[Gerry Addison]

I've bought quite a few guns on the internet and I've never really run into a problem like this before. I saw a gun on GunInternational that I thought was nice. I knew the seller from this site and other sites and have had dealings with him before. Made an offer on the gun with specific terms of a three day, non-firing inspection because he said he didn't have tools to properly measure barrel wall thickness, etc. He quickly agreed to these terms all done in email, so there is a record. I received the gun today and it looked as expected. When I threw it to my shoulder it felt a little funny lining up so I looked at the cast and to my surprise it is cast on. I got out the equipment and it is over 1/4 inch cast on for the left hand shooter. Quickly emailed him and told him I would be returning the gun and why. He said he wasn't aware of the cast but he was not going to accept a return because he didn't know it was cast on. He said I'll refund $300 so I can get it bent which I'm not willing to take the chance on and don't want to do. He still says he won't accept the return. I told him he had until tomorrow to agree to the return or I'll take further action. Again, there is email to back all of this up and if not agreed upon by tomorrow I'll do just that. Was buying this gun for a good friend/customer and he knew that and I said he would need time to inspect the gun. No way my friend wants a left hand side by side for $4200. Any suggestions gentlemen? I really don't want this to get ugly but I'm not going to let this go without some retaliation.

[Richard Flanders]

That happened to me once. I bought a nice 26" Daly Superior grade from a well known major dealer and was told it was neutral cast. Jeez, when I got it you could see from 20ft away that it was cast on for a leftie and when I called them they denied it. The guy blathered on about how good their smith was and how he knew how to measure a gun. And this is big dealer that everyone is familiar with. I ended up selling it to a left handed friend/shooter. I can tell you I no longer believe a thing I read in the gun descriptions on that site. Were I you, I wouldn't hesitate to file a complaint if that is a option.

[Brian Dudley]

Sounds like you are getting set up for a good screwing.

The situation is surely unacceptable. Stock dimensions are what they are. Without question. And if something like that is not advertised or advertised inaccurately, then there is an issue. If cast is not mentioned in a description. It should be safely assumed that it is neutral.

And a non-firing inspection period usually does imply that a return for any reason is allowed. And usually shipping is not part of the return. So worse case, the buyer looses on shipping both ways.

I hope that things work out for you though. If not, I am sure you will have recourse theough GI. I know they take stuff like that seriously.

[Gerry Addison]

This person is a member her and I trusted him. I’ll take every recourse starting tomorrow and that includes calling him out on this site. He has bought and sold enough guns to know about cast of a stock.

[Randy G Roberts]

Gerry don't hold me to this but I seem to recall that Guns International has some sort of a policy in place to ensure that these transactions are handled appropriately. Whether I am right or wrong on that along the same lines I would certainly suggest that you contact Dave or Deb Powell who own GI and discuss the situation with them. Surely they would have some valuable insight on your situation. They're good people.

[Randy G Roberts]

Go to the FAQ,s and there is a return policy there.

[Gerry Addison]

I am calling them first thing in the morning. Can't believe this is happening. Here is a shot of the measuring of the cast on which is more than 1/4" and is clearly seen with the naked eye. In fact, I noticed it as soon as I threw the gun to my shoulder. Again, it was clearly agreed to in writing there was a three day non-firing inspection period and he was notified within an hour of receipt of the gun. There were some other issues as well but I would have dealt with them, like the drop at comb was stated as 2 1/4" and it actually measures 2". Was told the finish was original but it has had coats of finish added. Those were bad enough but a left hand stock!

https://i.imgur.com/Bxblm01.jpg

[CraigThompson]

I realize this don’t remedy the situation, but did you look under the trigger guard to see if the number stamped in the wood matches the serial number ?

[Gerry Addison]

The gun in question is a Francotte 20E. There is no question the stock is original to the gun however the letter from Bob Beach on this gun which is in the records at Griffin and Howe indicates original stock dimensions were 1 1/2 X 2 3/4 X 14 1/4. In his listing, and on the phone he said the dimensions now were 1 1/2 X 2 1/4 X 14 1/4 and that he felt the change was merely a transcription error. No mention on the order or by the seller that it was cast on. I was fine with 2 1/4" of drop at heel so I would have been good if it were simply an error. However when I measure the stock it actually has 2" of drop, not 2 1/4 and is cast on. A layer of finish has been added to the stock (can easily see brush or rag streaks in the finish) and the wrist area is very dull probably caused by the bending process the gun has gone through and thus the reason for the added finish. I have agreed to pay for the shipping both ways to get out of this mess, but he flatly refuses saying he will return only $300 to help pay for the bending of the stock. As we all know bending a stock is tricky at best and might work, might not. The bend might stay, it might go back to the original cast on position. Or, it might crack! Not a gamble I'm willing to take. Gun is nice other than this issue and would make some lefty a very nice upland gun. Just not something I'm willing to deal with.

[Reggie Bishop]

It really bothers me every time I read of this type of transaction. I have bought guns from well known dealers that were described as "untouched original condition" only to find that they were not original condition guns. Chambers lengthened, bulged barrel repairs and wood re-finishes are three that come to mind. I am a businessman. I have been successful by being honest, forthright and a person of integrity. I wish those principles were followed by everyone but the greed factor often seems to win out. It really bothers me and I am just about to the point of only buying Parkers from friends that I know and trust.

[Gerry Addison]

Reggie, I totally agree and it seems to me this is happening more and more within the last few years. I have dealt with this person before with no problems and so I trusted him and his word, but I was also careful to put our agreement in writing so there was no question. I once paid for a repair on a stock after the new owner wrote me 6 months after the purchase saying he had pulled the locks off the gun and found a crack under the locks. He had shot the gun at sporting clays and skeet a number of times but felt the crack had been there when sold. I hadn't pulled the locks and rather than get into a dispute about it I paid for the repair. I lost money on the gun but he was happy and has bought guns from me since. All about trying to do the right thing and being honest. Later today I'll post the emails sent and the name of the member involves so no one else gets burned by his dealings.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Had the cast discovery on two (2) purchases in the last three 3 years.
Same results. Both transactions with well known large national Dealers.
I eat both deals! One of these was a $21000 gun and it cost me another $3500 to trade for a gun I could use.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dave Sizemore]

This guy should take the gun back and refund shipping both ways. As Dudley said, an unstated cast is presumed neutral.

[Gerry Addison]

I just now received an email saying he would return my money minus shipping charges. He ask that I not ship it until Monday so it doesn't sit over the weekend but I'm not comfortable with that because that would be beyond the three day inspection period and I no longer trust him. Even though I shouldn't have to pay them I won't argue about shipping because I'll just be happy not taking a huge hit on trying to sell a left hand gun.

Bob, I don't know how you swallowed that pill? I have learned to put everything in writing and keep it so there is no question.

[Dave Tercek]

I bought a little 28g Webley & Scott years ago from a dealer in Georgia. It came with a cast on instead of a cast off. I didn't realize it until after the 3 day inspection period. The dealer said it was a consignment gun and he had already paid the consigner. There was nothing he could do. I sent it to Mike Orlen. It came back with the proper cast off. It was still good when I traded it a year or two later.

[Eric Eis]

Gerry, send him an email asking if sending the gun back on Monday would be accepted and that three day inspection period was extended. This way you are both covered and I understand about not wanting to ship over a weekend period as I try to avoid that too.

[Brian Dudley]

IF it were me... I would accept notification of intent to return within the 3 day period as good. And I would think that would be the case with many other dealers. Being able to get it under way, or obviously transit times in shipping should not be considered.

But with this guy... who knows what he will try to pull.

I honestly do not worry about things moving over a weekend. How is that any different than during the week.

[Reggie Bishop]

I think its the fact that things "don't move" over the weekend. So if you ship a gun on Friday it basically sits somewhere, in warehouse or in a truck until things start moving on Monday. It increases the time the gun is in "limbo". Unless of course you use some type of expedited shipping which most buyer/sellers don't want to spend the extra money. Its a matter of personal opinion.

[Gerry Addison]

I like most of you have thought that packages don't move on Sunday. I just called UPS and ask that question and was told that they do continue to move along the route and would only be held up at the final destination if they arrive there on Sunday because of no Sunday delivery.

[Brian Dudley]

Yes. Things DO move over the weekend. Retail locations are just closed and deliveries are not made.

[Reggie Bishop]

Again it depends. If I walk into my local UPS store or Fedex drop point on Friday afternoon after UPS or Fedex has already picked up for the day, my package is going to sit there most likely til Monday morning. And there are other situations where a package may or not be idle for 2 days. I have witnessed it many times watching tracking info. and have been told by shipping company employees that there are lots of factors involved, like scheduling, meeting load requirements etc etc.

[Gerry Addison]

Gentlemen, thanks for your comments and input. Gun was shipped this afternoon to seller and hopefully this will end this entire mess.

[Victor Wasylyna]

To me, a three-day inspection means you can return for any reason. I sure wish you would identify this person, but I appreciate your predicament.

-Victor