New York Catskills grouse report

[James L. Martin]

So far this season has been very bad. In 8 days of hunting I put in 38 hours and had 13 grouse flushes for .34 flushes an hour. Out of those I only heard most. I didn't get a single shot at any , my partner shot at 1 bird which he missed. We also only put up 3 Woodcock and got 1 which was the only shot I took in all 8 days of hunting. Hope better days are coming, I have been hunting grouse for 50 years, the birds disappeared from southern New York and now the Catskills seems to be going down the same road.

[charlie cleveland]

sounds like ahard hunt with nothing to show for it.....i have traveled that same road....charlie

[Garry L Gordon]

So far this season has been very bad. In 8 days of hunting I put in 38 hours and had 13 grouse flushes for .34 flushes an hour. Out of those I only heard most. I didn't get a single shot at any , my partner shot at 1 bird which he missed. We also only put up 3 Woodcock and got 1 which was the only shot I took in all 8 days of hunting. Hope better days are coming, I have been hunting grouse for 50 years, the birds disappeared from southern New York and now the Catskills seems to be going down the same road.

So, James, have they quit logging in the Catskills as they have in so many eastern areas? I lived through the same thing in SE Ohio. Court injunctions from so-called environmentalists who had gotten their ideas of what a healthy forest should look like from a calendar photo stopped the harvesting of trees almost completely...and...no grouse or other wildlife that needs early successional forests.

[James L. Martin]

I don't see much logging on state land, they do on private land. Where I hunt there is plenty of food and cover, I think it's the hawks ,owls ,and turkeys and maybe the latest problem, west nile virus. You hear and read many reasons, for the most part it's been a long slide down, what has changed in 40 years is the large increase in hawks and owls and the reintroduction of turkeys.

[edgarspencer]

I still believe that predators are the single biggest cause of the population decline. We can't change wet springs, or go back and undo the reintroduction of wild turkey, but state biologists need to acknowledge the issue and open up the season and bag limits. Lottery? Give me a break.

[Eric Eis]

I still believe that predators are the single biggest cause of the population decline. We can't change wet springs, or go back and undo the reintroduction of wild turkey, but state biologists need to acknowledge the issue and open up the season and bag limits. Lottery? Give me a break.

Also habitat and clear cutting makes all the difference!

[Daniel Carter]

Among many factors, the advent of selective cutting to appease tree huggers has led to a less than ideal re-generation of habitat. Reading Gillion it takes a certain threshold of stem density to make the cover suitable to grouse. No habitat = no birds.

[John Dallas]

I don't buy the predation answer. There is a natural balance between predators and prey. If there is a lot of prey, predators will move in. If there is a lack of prey, the predator population will drop or move out. Perhaps man has been too efficient, and therefore the game population is dropping. Now, following my thoughts above, the hunter population is dropping I always look first at habitat

[Gary Laudermilch]

At least some of the problem is the lack of a fur market. Nobody trapping or coon hunting anymore as hides cannot be given away. We are overrun with all sorts of vermin and they all raid nests.

[Dean Romig]

The avian predator problem we had in my hunting area is virtually gone. I have yet to see a goshawk or a barred owl this season at all. The grouse numbers there have been diminishing for a few years now but this year we are seeing far fewer than even last year... but the avian predators have moved on..... or have succumbed to WNV themselves... :cool:





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[CraigThompson]

I never bird hunted the Catskills I did however look around a bit for a deer spot when I used to hunt the Poconos . Couple years I killed my PA buck the first day and I had nothing to hunt except a doe or two the rest of the week . So one year I decided to scout a few public places right over the river and kinda close to Monticello . I thought I had found a couple likely spots then a friend that was a local in the area told me about the hord that came out on public land for deer so I kinda trashed that idea .

[Kingston Wulff]

I don't buy the predation answer. There is a natural balance between predators and prey. If there is a lot of prey, predators will move in. If there is a lack of prey, the predator population will drop or move out. Perhaps man has been too efficient, and therefore the game population is dropping. Now, following my thoughts above, the hunter population is dropping I always look first at habitat

Well put.

[James L. Martin]

I can understand natural balance but let's look at the northern New Jersey and southern New York area, 40 years ago you could expect to have 20 plus grouse flushes a day on average. Today you can hunt all season and not see a grouse, New Jersey just closed there grouse season. As to cover and food it's as good as it was 40 years ago. What changed? It was very rare to see a turkey or a coyote, but the big change was the increase in hawks and owls. It's not just the grouse that disappeared also the pheasants and rabbits. I don't have the answers, just going by what I have seen happen over my lifetime.

[Garry L Gordon]

I think we all have our theories and what we think is empirical evidence. I know that there has been almost no cutting of trees on public (especially federal) forestlands for quite some time in places like Virginia, Ohio, and Kentucky, and the bird numbers have decreased. I feel confident that New Jersey has not been cutting on its lands to create early successional forests. In the end, no matter what the cause, there are fewer and fewer birds, especially in places like New Jersey, Ohio...etc.

[Richard Flanders]

Our ruffie numbers around Fairbanks are very low, as a result I think of a combination of much of the habitat getting a bit mature and the hunting pressure increasing to a ridiculous level. Our grouse seasons all open on August 10, which is way too early. At that point the family groups are still together and the YOY are clueless. People ride the trails and logging roads on quads and in pickups and sluice them on the ground in large numbers. I walked 7miles in 3 hrs yesterday with my 28ga Repro, all on fresh 3 day old snow and didn't see a single bird track in what has been a very productive area in the past. No one had been on that trail since the snow fell. All I saw was fox, squirrel, moose and bunny trax. There weren't many rose hips along the trail, which is what often brings them to it, but even where there was some there was no sign of birds. The season opens way too early for the amount of pressure we get these days. The top of our ruffie cycle was a few yrs back too so we may have dropped off on that. There's a few around our neighborhood and one walked into my place here yesterday afternoon when I was gone. I'm hoping it discovers my bird feeder and sticks around for the winter. I'll keep him in food for sure.

[Daniel G Rainey]

This so sad, hope it does follow the fate of the bobwhite in the south

[Eric Eis]

This so sad, hope it does follow the fate of the bobwhite in the south

Without habitat it will.....:(

[Daniel Carter]

This is more complicated than one factor causing the decline in so many widely seperated areas. The natural world responds in varying ways to many causes at any one time. The tipping point can be brought about by a minor thing when the other factors are in place. In the north new factors have occurred in the last 2 decades, west nile virus and winter ticks are 2 of them, both added to habitat factors may be the tipping point maybe not. The result is not in doubt. Looking at what has happened to moose numbers across the southern range of their habitat is an example caused in part by the winter tick. We will probably never be able to lay blame on any one cause.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Everybody is right. There are a multitude of factors that are creating a perfect storm. Any one of them might not be catastrophic but when combined can cause severe problems that can be difficult to overcome. We can only hope it is not too late to effect some change.

Changing people's perceptions regarding timber harvesting, especially clearcutting is a tough nut to crack. The exodus of urban folks to rural areas has not been helpful as it has caused the fragmentation of large farms into smaller units owned by city folks. To them cutting a tree is desecration of the forest. They see things in too short a time span. Unfortunately, they are also quite vocal about events on public land as well. Farmers saw trees as a crop to supplement their income or serve as a retirement fund. Creating good quality habitat over the landscape will be a major challenge.

[Ted Hicks]

I've hunted leased land in New York's Adirondacks for over 40 years and this is property that is managed either for timber harvest or pulp wood harvest. It is regularly clear cut according to the land owner's harvest needs and goals, generally a 20 - 40 year cycle. Despite this the grouse numbers are nothing like they were even 20 years ago. Not sure why because from what I can see the habitat has been maintained to be well suited for grouse. I remember when you could hunt them and they would hold for a point and allow the hunter to move in to flush the bird. Now it seems you get within 30 yards before the dog has scented them and you hear them flush. Something has them on edge and I always assumed predators such as foxes or coyotes. There are Barred Owls there, but I haven't seen a Goshawk in 30 years or more that I can recall. I would guess that coyotes and perhaps a few bobcats are the major predators. Not sure at all about the prevalence of West Nile Virus in the Adirondacks.

Same in one area of the Southern Tier where I hunt on state land. This area is 12,000 acres of actively forested and managed property specifically to produce and maintain deer and grouse; some turkeys have moved in over the past 20 years too. The state follows a cycle of clear-cutting 10 acre blocks and will often replant specific tree species. The schedule of cutting is known to the public so you can hunt different 10 acre blocks where you know how long since they were clear cut. The idea is that you can learn how many years after clear-cutting the habitat becomes suitable and the birds to move in. And, you can tell how old the habitat is when birds stop using it. This way you can focus your hunting in areas that are most likely to hold birds. But the same outcome...very few deer, turkeys and grouse there. No sign of predators that I can see, even coyotes, but you hunt through acres and acres of what looks like prime habitat and find very few if any birds. It's been puzzling and frustrating.

I posted in the Hunting sub-forum that I expanded my search for grouse to the western edge of the Adirondacks. We found birds there and they behaved much more like they used to, but 11 flushes over three days, about 20 hours of field time, is not a lot of birds. I would have considered that a good day 20 years ago in my home areas. But at least the birds we found held and flushed much closer so maybe they were less pressured.

[Kingston Wulff]

I've read your accounts of wild bird population drops. In Nevada, these numbers seem to be off considerably as well. So what does Nevada have that could relate to New York or New Jersey? Climate change?
I drove into my favorite mtn. range and spooked up a Golden Eagle along with several Ravens. I came back the next morning and was met by the same Golden Eagle and murder of Ravens as before. Only this time the Golden flew at windshield level out in front of my truck. (The wing span was incredible). As if to say, " Come along I'll show you where they are."
This Mtn. range is listed this year as a Zero count for Chukar birds by the Nevada Dept. of Wildlife (NDOW). This is a mtn. range that I have hunted for over 25 years and in 1999 my partner and I collected 25 birds legally between four species in one weekend.
Now, you can barley find a flush. I took the chance that no one would hunt this area because of the Chukar report. And I was right; I know where the birds will be if only just a few. I only got two birds, but I did flush three coveys within range.
Something has changed; or maybe a lot of things have changed. Too little water, too little
water too late, too much hunting pressure, too many natural predators, climate change with warmer temps., loss of proper habitat; or all of the above.

[Reggie Bishop]

Years ago when wild quail were found in strong numbers here in the South, I always said "hard hunters and good dogs will always find birds." I hunted hard with good dogs until about 2003. At that point I decided either I couldn't hunt hard anymore or there weren't any good bird dogs because it was very difficult to find a covey of birds. When I read these negative reports of other upland hunters, hunting various species of upland birds, it saddens me. Hunting clay birds just isn't the same.

[edgarspencer]

I can now safely report, after many miles of walking, he is still here. I know this because I flushed him this afternoon.
Yes, Reggie, it saddens me also. Growing old doesn’t, nor do the various and many failing body parts. What saddens me is no longer getting the heart skip of the King. I was so thrilled by his rush, I think I’d just watch him above my bead, and thank him.