Early Trap Guns

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Does anyone know how many of these guns were produced. HD Folsom advertised these guns in 1884 and again in 1889, they were touted as superior to the regular parker gun probably BS, but they came with a pigeon butt plate .I think some were made in 10ga and 12ga.It would be interesting if any members or visitors to this site would let me know if they own one of these guns, a lot of people were not aware of there existance. I have heard that 100 12ga and 100 10ga guns were built. to be distributed by Folsom. Were any hammer guns like this made? If you have documentation showing number and gauges made please share this with me, I want to put together an article for Parker Pages on this subject. Thanks in advance Gary

[Drew Hause]

Some Folsom history here http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXX Q
and http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20091267

Feel free to use anything Gary. I was not aware of the Folsom Parker Trap guns but very interested in learning more!

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, they made hammer guns for Folsom with the Trap Gun Butt. I have a Folsom order specifying Trap Gun Butt but can't find it.

[Drew Hause]

Just as a FYI, Hunter Arms offered a "The Trap Gun" buttplate which is commonly found on c. 1890-1910 00 to No. 2 grade guns.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/291555364.jpg

Not sure what the dog and duck had to do with Live Bird and Inanimate Targets :p

No "Trap Gun" was advertised in the pre-1913 catalogs, but their Pigeon Grade "The only American Pigeon Gun made" was introduced in 1893.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/391070428.jpg

[Austin W Hogan]

Here are two pieces of info I have, one from some research Mark and I did for an article, and one from my own collection record. There was no apparent reason for the "Parker Trap Gun" butt, the red line divides those with and without in Folsom's order. The order, and the individual gun almost span the top action era. Does anyone have lifter or hammerless with a Parker Trap Gun butt? If so Josh would be interested for Parkers Found.

Best, Austin

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Austin, I have a 12ga 30" laminated steel barrels, It is the third gun on that list, I have not seen this page before, It appears that all were laminated, my thought that all were 30" just went out the window I see 32" and 10ga also. You mentioned an article you did was it for parker pages? if so when? Also was this all the info that Mark could glean from the records about Folsom and the pigeon butt plate or trap butt plate as it should be called. The time span looks as though it runs from 1881-82 to 1890m are thereabouts, I will scan some of Drews info and see what comes up. This is a most interesting gun, little known, and it sounds to me a good marketing ploy by H.D. Folsom. I am surprised that Parker Bros did not advertise this also, to promote sales, but have seen no indication of such as yet! By the way my serial is 28913, I hope others will tell me if they have one of these guns to see the serial number range etc.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Drew Hause, thank you for the info on Folsom.Brad Bachelder is redoing the barrels on my gun as we speak, they may be finished? I would hope that Brad would post a photo of the laminated barrels so you could see them, any way this will be an interesting project thank you again for the info, will keep you posted. Thanks Gary

[Austin W Hogan]

Gary; I'll have to look back; I think we showed the full page and noted that the special butt plates were only on about half the guns, but were noted.
Note Folsom's Warren St address, with reference to another post a few days past. That building on Warren St apparently housed many hardware makers and distributors; much like the clothing industry in the Empire State Building.

Best, Austin

[Jeff Kuss]

Gary,
I will post a picture of the two different butt plates when I find them on my computer.
Jeff

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thanks Jeff are there two different style trap buttplates? do both have pigeons on them?Gary

[John Mazza]

Gary:


I have an 1886 Parker with "The Parker Trap Gun" buttplate. It letters as being ordered by Folsom & mentions the special order requesting that buttplate.

It's a 12 gauge, 30" twist barrelled hammer gun that shoots like a champ !!! ANY GUN that makes me look good on teh trap range MUST be one helluva gun !

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

John, thanks for the reply, If you don't mind what's the serial number? twist barrels? My gun letters and is on the list furnished by Austin on page one but the letter does not mention the buttplate, I will check with mark on that Is the gun full & full? Thanks Gary

[Bill Zachow]

Gary, some years back, I wrote an article for Parker Pages about the Parker trap gun. It was during Ron Kirby's editorship so was a number of years ago. I have one of the guns--G grade 12--and copies of two orders from Folsums for the guns. Interestingly enough, the last order also included shipment of "two molds". I believe Folsum may have funded building the trap butt mold. The guns were made in 10 and 12 gauge and primarily G grade with Damascus barrels. Other than the butt, there is absolutely no difference between a regular G and a trap G.

[John Mazza]

Gary:

It's 47,147. Twist barrels. The letter gave the pattern info (which I don't recall now), but with RST ammo, I'd say it shoots like full & full (or possibly modified and full).

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thanks Bill and John, Bill hope to see you at the vintigers, have some questions for you, meantime I will look up the article I have all copies of parker pages, so I will find it. You may have covered this subject already. The Paker Story states that some laminated barrels may have a higher degree of finish or grade. Have you seen two grades of laminated barrels?

[Robin Lewis]

Gary, some years back, I wrote an article for Parker Pages about the Parker trap gun. It was during Ron Kirby's editorship so was a number of years ago. I have one of the guns--G grade 12--and copies of two orders from Folsums for the guns. Interestingly enough, the last order also included shipment of "two molds". I believe Folsum may have funded building the trap butt mold. The guns were made in 10 and 12 gauge and primarily G grade with Damascus barrels. Other than the butt, there is absolutely no difference between a regular G and a trap G.

Bill's article is in the 2000 year's Volume 9, issue 3 issue of Parker Pages.
Hint: Go to the main PGCA page and click on "Parker Pages" link on the left side. On that page you will find a "Past Parker Pages" click here (http://parkerguns.org/pages/parker_pages_indexes.html) link that will take you to a full index of Parker Pages which you can look through; or use your web browser's search feature to find what you need.

[Jeff Kuss]

Gary,
I had to retake this picture. 47629 is a one frame 12 ga. 46035 is a 3 frame 10 ga. The two butt plates are different for large and small frame guns. Both guns are twist barrels. I have seen a g with damascus barrels. I agree with Bill. I see no difference other that the butt plate from other hammer parkers. Most I have seen are well used.
Jeff

[John Mazza]

Mine has the buttplate on the right (from Jeff's post). {It's a 1 frame 12, hammer gun. 30" twist}

My gun's seen a lot of use too, but my buttplate is not quite as worn.

[Bill Murphy]

Kevin McCormack and I and a couple of other PGCA members were sitting at the McCormack Parker display table at Baltimore several years ago. A gentleman and lady asked if we wanted to look at a Parker shotgun. Oh well, we said we would look. They unwound the highest condition Parker I think any of us had ever seen. It was a stone mint, brand new Folsom Hammer Trap Gun, tags, receipts, shipping box, about a quarter inch of paperwork from Parker Brothers, Railway Express, Folsom Arms, and I don't remember who all. This has been a few years ago when a T grade hammer gun in rather high condition would sell for maybe six or seven hundred dollars. We had a little pow-wow and agreed the the gun would sell for ten grand on its sale to a collector. I have never seen anything like that before or since. I hope Kevin will comment. Our historian may have been among the people who saw this gun.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Bill, You never know what will "walk in" at a show that kind of thing will get your heart racing!Did the folks tell you any history of the gun? Thanks Gary

[Bill Murphy]

I don't think they knew except for the names on the correspondence. Maybe one of "us" contacted these people, but I did not.

[Albert Horn]

need information!!! I have 12 ga 29 1/2" barrel hammer Parker Bros shotgun #38385 with dove butt plate marked "Parker Trap Gun" any help will be appreciated. Albert Horn
sawdust73@hotmail.com

[Robin Lewis]

In another threads on our Parker forum, there is mention of “Trap butt plates” being on guns ordered by H. D. Folsom. From the discussion there, it would appear that for some reason or another, Folsom made a cast of Parker’s dog’s head butt plate and added the word “Trap” below the dog’s head. They then gave that mold to Parker Bros. so Parker could add this “Trap butt” to guns ordered by Folsom. The question arises, “Why would they want a special Trap butt plate on their Parker gun orders?”


H. D. Folsom was located at 314 Broadway in New York City and they held a majority of stock in Crescent Fire Arms Co. of Norwich Connecticut. Folsom also distributed Birmingham and Belgian made firearms under many trade names from 1890 until about 1932; including some marked C. Parker, W. Richards and T. Barker. In 1930, Stevens Arms announced the purchase from H&D Folsom Arms Company and the assets of Crescent Fire Arms Company of Norwich, Connecticut. The assets of Crescent were to be merged with those of Davis-Warner Arms Corporation and that the newly formed firm would be known as The Crescent-Davis Arms Corporation. Then, in 1954 Folsom was purchased by Universal Tackle and Sporting Goods Co.


H. D. Folsom sold guns under many trade names. I started to list the trade names but the list was too long. Suffice it to say, there were a lot of trade names used by Folsom.

[Jeff Kuss]

I have seen a similar butt plate for a LC Smith. I have never checked to see if it was also from Folsom. Perhaps someone else knows.
Jeff

[Drew Hause]

The Smith buttplate is commonly found on c. 1890-1910 0 to No. 2 grade guns. No "Trap Gun" was advertised in the pre-1913 catalogs, and the buttplate was likely a marketing tool to promote Smith guns for the increasingly popular sport of trap shooting, and tied into the new Pigeon Gun which was introduced in 1894 (though the first run was completed in May 1893.) See http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_343dn6phncv

The Trap GRADE gun was introduced in 1913

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/291555364.jpg

LOTS about Folsom, and the Parker Trap Gun they marketed with a different buttplate, here
http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXX Q&pli=1

And another after-market plate that is not uncommon

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/15656750/237552623.jpg

[Albert Horn]

under #38385 is patd Mar 16 1875--above that patd Apr 11 1876-Sept 3 1872--on the barrel patd June 25 1878 & patd Apr 11 1876--forearm patd Mar 26 1878--under barrel patd Mar23 1875. This gun is in good condition except inside the barrel has some pitting. Barrel has markings--circle with a T inside--a "J"--ST-6 and a large 1 on bottom of barrel. All serial numbers of #38385 match. Parker Bros on both sides of this gun. "Parker Trap Gun" on butt plate with a pigeon flying. I would like to know the value.

[Mark Ouellette]

Drew,

I have a LC Smith Syracuse made Quality 2 in 10 gauge that has that Trap Gun butt plate. It may have replaced the original on this 1887 Smith. What do you think?

Respectfully,
Mark

[Drew Hause]

Could be the earliest Mark. Unfortunately, I've not seen the 'Trap Gun' buttplate in Hunter Arms catalogs or advertisments, so it's hard to date.

The 1888 Syrascuse L.C. smith catalog had a testimonial dated May 27, 1887 from Elkhart, Ill. Dear Sir: "I have tested the two Hammerless guns that you made to my order and find them equal to any gun I have ever shot or examined. I think the fastening superior in construction to that of any gun that I have ever examined and it is my judgment that your guns will not become loose and shaky by hard usage. The guns hand and balance equal to any foreign gun that I am familiar with. Workmanship also good."
Yours Respectfully, CAPT A.H. BOGARDUS Champion Wing Shot of the World.

Harvey McMurchy left Cinncinnati for Syracuse in 1886, so it's likely Hunter Arms was promoting trap shooting as early as 1887.

[Jeff Kuss]

Thanks Drew. Great info.
Jeff

[Dean Romig]

Albert, could that "circle with a T inside" actually be a T with a 'half-circle' over it and a 'half-circle' beneath it? The "circle with a T inside" was actually the stamping of Titanic Steel (fluid steel) barrels which were produced from 1897 onward.

[Austin W Hogan]

I have a page from the Parker order books dated 1882 that Ron Kirby sent me by mistake. He thought I was asking for 26745 (but I had 26145) and sent me this page devoted to a Folsom order, with 26745 in the middle. The scan is not very sharp when compressed but there is a line on the left about one quarter of the way up the page. Above it at mid page is an entry "Trap Gun Butts" and below it an entry "not trap butts". All of the guns on the page are 30 or 32 inch 10 or 12 ga, quite normal for the time. There is a 5$ surcharge for 10 ga to $75. The entry is a logical progression; 12 ga 30 in increasing in weight, followed by 12 ga 32 in increasing in weight, 10 ga 30 in increasing in weight, then 32 in 10 ga increasing in weight; followed by a similar list of not trap butts of similar progression but shorter. The entries are in that progression but the serials do not proceed in numerical order. The weights are from 7 1/2 to 9 pounds in 12 ga and 9 1/2 to 10 pounds in 10 ga.

Trap gun butts and not trap butts appear to be the only differences specified in the order

Best, Austin