Go-to gun

[todd allen]

Hunting the Gambels Quail out where I live, it's kind of an oasis in the desert. The mix of farm, desert, and feedlot holds plenty of birds, but they have a brilliant escape plan. Straight North to the water canal system, and the dense atriplex cover that runs along the waterways. The cover means safety, and the birds just burrow in. They really have no reason to flee the cover, but for the diligence of a couple of hard working bird dogs sniffing the outskirts of the bush, and punching in as far as possible. The birds know the dogs know they're in there, and they will often give in to their nerves, and make a run for it. Opportunities typically start at 35 yds, and get worse from there, though sometimes (rarely) the fear of the spotted beasts will drive them straight into your face.
Running a 32" VHE, with factory full chokes, I choose my shots. This gun shoots where I look, and will control the real estate out to 50 yards. That's right where this guy was, when the right bbl caught up with him.
59968
I have more glamorous guns in the safe, but this one is the one that I rely on to get the job done on late season quail.
Those Parker boys really knew what they were doing, when they constructed the interior ballistics of these guns.

[Daniel G Rainey]

Sounds like ruff hunting but sometimes that is what make it rewarding.

[Dean Romig]

Todd, what gauge is your 32" VHE?






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[todd allen]

It's a 12 gauge. The preferred load(s) are either an ounce of 7 1/2s, or an ounce and a sixteenth of 7s, at about 1100 fps.
The gun kills quail like a hammer!

[CraigThompson]

I've got a 32" GH with Damascus barrels I got from someone here that I'm learning to like . But I've also got a VH 2 frame 30" that I've owned about forty years that I shoot very well be it Skeet trap or sporting and like yours it's rather tight . Hence forth however I think my "go to" bird gun provided it's not raining is a little circa 1928 VHE 20 gauge 28" M&F . I've known that gun for about fifty years and was finally able to acquire it three years ago . Well it's actually the gun in my avatar ����

[todd allen]

Not to take anything away from the North East grouse hunters running shorter barrels, I totally get it, have done a little of that, but nothing moves on long, complicated targets, like a 32" gun.
Target gets up, flys like the dickens, gun comes to shoulder, comes from behind into the birds, smoothly establishes lead, and BANG! The bird is down.
Very hard to stop, jink or jerk the swing. Pure Cadillac.

[CraigThompson]

Not to take anything away from the North East grouse hunters running shorter barrels, I totally get it, have done a little of that, but nothing moves on long, complicated targets, like a 32" gun.
Target gets up, flys like the dickens, gun comes to shoulder, comes from behind into the birds, smoothly establishes lead, and BANG! The bird is down.
Very hard to stop, jink or jerk the swing. Pure Cadillac.

I'm not disagreeing with you as I like the long ones as well . But I like the short ones to .
Back when I Grouse hunted a fair amount in the Virginia Blue Ridge Mountains I generally carried a Browning Upland Special 16 gauge and that bad boy was only 24" . I've got a little GH 1 frame 16 that someone saw fit to remove an inch from the barrels so it's now at the 27" range and FWIW I do very very well with that one on the skeet field or dove field . Now on the other hand "I had" a 20 gauge Sterlingworth 26" that I had to work at to shoot well . I think weight had something to do with that as that little gun was quite easy to stop or whip . But then again I have a little Iver Johnson double 410 that I can generally shoot 90+ on the skeet field and that ones light as well but my natural tendency is to try harder with a 410 I suppose .

[Randy G Roberts]

Not to take anything away from the North East grouse hunters running shorter barrels, I totally get it, have done a little of that, but nothing moves on long, complicated targets, like a 32" gun.
Target gets up, flys like the dickens, gun comes to shoulder, comes from behind into the birds, smoothly establishes lead, and BANG! The bird is down.
Very hard to stop, jink or jerk the swing. Pure Cadillac.

I totally agree with that Todd. Pheasant hunted with a 32" VHE 20 ga this year and it worked great.It's choked pretty tight and I had no issues killing birds. I have recently learned that there is something out there I may like even better than 32" barrels and that would be 34" barrels, at least for targets.

[todd allen]

I would love to try out a 34" gun on sporting clays.

[Randy G Roberts]

I would love to try out a 34" gun on sporting clays.

Todd if you ever get to Southern IN or to the Southern in Sanford I can gladly make that happen for you.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Dr John (Truitt), can tell you alittle about those 34" barrels--he certainly favors them.

[Mike Poindexter]

This has been one of my go-to guns for preserve birds over pointing or flushing dogs. Light, quick, and open seems to work for me out to 35 yards or so with RST or Polywad 24 gram 6's. I'm not a good enough shot to consistently hit longer ones (except geese with my 32" 10 ga., but that's another story) even with the full choke barrel. This is last weeks haul for 3 shooters. Mr. Bishop's letter says the following:

Parker shotgun, serial number 130829, was ordered by J.B. Shannon & Sons of Philadelphia PA on February 4, 1905 and shipped on August 20, 1905. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 66, it was a GH han1merless, 12-gauge. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 26 inches. Special requests were "Lite" and RH cylinder. The order was placed by S.A. Tucker.
According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 46, the stock configuration was a capped pistol grip and its specifications were: Length of Pull: l 4 ¼", Drop at Heel: 2 3/4", Weight: 6 pounds and 8 ounces. The chokes were patterned RH 120 pellets and LH 240 pellets of size 7 shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards.

Except for replacing a cracked DHBP and a missing front sight bead, it is original as it letters. I feel lucky to have found it as a walk in at a local show. Sorry for the sideways pics.:banghead:

[Randy G Roberts]

Nice Mike. That brings back some memories of last pheasant season.

[Mike Franzen]

Todd are you still in the Las Vegas area?

[todd allen]

Yes, 60 miles northeast towards Utah.

[Tom Flanigan]

Not to take anything away from the North East grouse hunters running shorter barrels, I totally get it, have done a little of that, but nothing moves on long, complicated targets, like a 32" gun.
Target gets up, flys like the dickens, gun comes to shoulder, comes from behind into the birds, smoothly establishes lead, and BANG! The bird is down.
Very hard to stop, jink or jerk the swing. Pure Cadillac.

Todd....even thought grouse in thick cover is instinctual shooting, I never understoof the popularity of short barrels. I used mostly 28" guns in grouse cover but wouldn't feel handicapped with 32" barrels if it was a light gun.
They feel better and point better, even in close cover.

Some talk about short barrels needed in tight cover but I never understood the logic of that. I've never had the swing of a gun barrel stopped by brush. It just doesn't happen.

I owned a 34" DHE that was my favorite pass shooting gun in Sasketechewan. Those long barrels sure helped. I loved the feel of that gun.

[Dean Romig]

Some talk about short barrels needed in tight cover but I never understood the logic of that. I've never had the swing of a gun barrel stopped by brush. It just doesn't happen.

It is 99.9% psychological... and That in itself is always enough to miss a bird.






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[Gary Laudermilch]

As is usual for these discussions I am at the opposite end of the trend. I have no use for long barrels. I like 'em short or more specifically with the weight of the gun between my hands. I did some of the best shooting on pass shooting doves last year with my 12 ga P w/26" twist barrels choked .012/.024 with 7/8 oz loads. At 6-10 it is a lightweight but moves as smooth as silk. As someone said, to each his own.

[Phil Yearout]

28". Not too long, not too short :corn:.

[Tom Flanigan]

It's purely a personal thing. I like long barrels others like the short ones. My grandfather taught me to shoot with my barrel arm extended like I was pointing at something rather than bent like most others shoot. His theory was it gave better control. It is natural when pointing at something to keep your arm straight. My hand is well down the barrel when shooting so short barrels don't feel right to me. Also, I don't like to shoot guns with Beavertails since my natural form is to shoot with my hand beyond the reach of these types of forend's and they get in the way for me.

[Rich Anderson]

This is my go to upland bird gun or at least it's the main one. Gunner's Gun :)

[Craig Larter]

I absolutely love 26" bird guns in 20ga for flushed game either Mearns quail, wild Bob's or south Dakota pheasants. My current favorite is a Fox CE. For ducks my go to is a 9lb super fox or 10ga Parker. Weird me.

[charlie cleveland]

nice....charlie

[Eldon Goddard]

I would love to try out a 34" gun on sporting clays.

Hey Todd,
I am in Las Vegas and you are more than welcome to shoot my 34" VHE on sporting clays with me.

[todd allen]

Hi Eldon, I would love to shoot the 34" gun. Where do you shoot at?

[Tom Flanigan]

Not to take anything away from the North East grouse hunters running shorter barrels, I totally get it, have done a little of that, but nothing moves on long, complicated targets, like a 32" gun.
Target gets up, flys like the dickens, gun comes to shoulder, comes from behind into the birds, smoothly establishes lead, and BANG! The bird is down.
Very hard to stop, jink or jerk the swing. Pure Cadillac.

I'm a grouse hunter but I can see the advantages of long barrels even when snap shooting at short range. I use 28" barrels on my grouse guns but wouldn't mind if they were longer. The problem is finding a light small bore gun with longer barrels and open chokes. I've never seen one. And I would never alter the original chokes of a Parker. Many folks do, but not me. I'll shoot the shorter barrels and leave Parker molestation to others.

[Dean Romig]

I shoot 24", 25", 26", 27", and 28" for grouse and woodcock and don't think I'd be comfortable shooting longer barrels for these birds... and it's got nothing to do with being in close cover and being afraid that the close growing saplings would hinder my swing... and open chokes are often overrated in my opinion. I just found out a few weeks ago that I do very well with ultra-full chokes at all sorts of SC targets. I'm beginning to wonder if many of my previous misses with open chokes may have been because of a lack of density in my patterns.






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[Harold Lee Pickens]

I love to hunt grouse with my J Manton 20 ga hammer gun. It has 30" barrels and
cyl/cyl chokes. I shot this 5 bird limit this fall with it. 4 shots, 4 birds, and then the right hammer spring broke on the 5th. Spent the rest of the day with a functional left barrel only and misssed 3 in a row before getting the next. Thats Betty and Fancy in the pic

[Harold Lee Pickens]

It is a little muzzle heavy, but still a light gun. Cant wait to try my little German 16 ga hammer gun, 30' with cyl/full this fall. It weighs 5 lbs 13 oz--lighter than the 20

[Rich Anderson]

I'm beginning to wonder if many of my previous misses with open chokes may have been because of a lack of density in my patterns.






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I doubt it. Most grouse shots are rather close inside 25 yards and thats a long shot where I hunt. Sometimes even 28 inch barrels are to long and I gave up on some nice 30 inch guns a while ago. A choke combination I have begun to appreciate is IC/F in either 26 or 28 inch guns. Foolishly I let a nice DH O frame 16 go that was so choked with 26 inch tubes. That still bothers me:banghead::banghead:

[Daryl Corona]

I think you've finally figured it out Dean. I've found that 7 1/2's in a modified to full choke will kill any upland bird that I care to hunt.

[Tom Flanigan]

It all depends on the typical range at which your shots are taken. My grouse coverts are very thick. A ten yard shot is common with about 25 yards being the maximum before winter. Any choke at all is a handicap in my coverts. The first barrel of my grouse guns are IC but I shot a 16 bore for years with a cylinder bore. With an ounce of 9’s, no grouse could fly through my patterns up to about 35 yards. I patterned the gun at all typical grouse ranges and so I knew what the gun would do. One of the reasons I have been so successful with #9’s is that you can shoot open bores and still have enough pellets to fill out the pattern at the ranges my shots were taken. Go to a 7 ½ or larger and you can have gaps in the pattern at the further end of grouse shots. An ounce of 7 ½ contains 579 pellets while an ounce of 7 ½ contains only 346. It makes a big difference when the tight cover stops many of the pellets from reaching the bird. The old time grouse hunters knew this which is why they shot fine shot.

Not every grouse covert is like mine are, especially in the west. There the shots at grouse are typically longer. My average shot at grouse in Saskatchewan was probably at around 25 yards. The cover is much less thick and the birds are scattered and not concentrated like they are in my home coverts. I used my shaptail and hun gun bored modified and full with #6’s and did well. I didn’t take shells specifically for the grouse. If I did, I would have probably shot 8’s.

I highly recommend that grouse hunters shoot some patterns at the typical ranges that they shoot their birds. If you hunt in thick coverts you'll see that tight chokes are a real handicap. Compare a cylinder or improved cylinder spread with a modified of full barrel and you'll see what I am talking about. Absolutely no room for error with the tighter chokes and birds messed up with many pellets on the one's you do hit. Go on out there and shoot some patterns and then tell me what you find.

I think some of you guys will join the ranks of Flanigan, Foster. Spiller and Schaldach. :)

[Daniel Carter]

Thirty years ago my sons and i paced off the distance to fallen woodcock, average of 13 yards. Grouse found in the same areas 20 yards. We went to spreaders and found much more success. Afternoons in the old orchards 25 to 30 yds with ic and mod. Your milage my differ. All in western Maine, most if not all in typical thick cover, some spruce, lot of alder.Number 8 mornings 6 afternoon in different cover. But the most important thing is how you point the gun not what is in it.

[Tom Flanigan]

But the most important thing is how you point the gun not what is in it.

True but that doesn't diminish the need for open bores and light shot. This type of shooting is instinctual and open patterns of fine shots will turn misses into hits. You have a much larger margin of error. I would venture that few birds would be taken in my coverts with modified or full chokes and 7 1/2 shot. Which is why my grandfather calmed me down when I found a high brass 7 1/2 case in my coverts. He laughed when I told him what kind of shell and the shot size and said "don't worry, that fella won't be getting any of your birds".

[Rich Anderson]

I'm a fan of 8's and open chokes. I think the heavier shot will penetrate the cover better and when it reaches the bird it provides a cleaner kill. As the foliage drops and shots become somewhat longer I'll use 7's or 71/2 and a IC/M choke set up.

[Tom Flanigan]

I'm a fan of 8's and open chokes. I think the heavier shot will penetrate the cover better and when it reaches the bird it provides a cleaner kill. As the foliage drops and shots become somewhat longer I'll use 7's or 71/2 and a IC/M choke set up.


That's an interesting thought. Number 8 shot would seem to be a decent compromise. I used to go to 8's in the winter when shots could be a bit longer. Even with the leaves down and cover opened up a bit, my shots are still relatively close and so I now stick to 9's throughout the season.

I’ll let my hero Wiilliam Harnden Foster weigh in here with a quote from his classic New England Grouse Shooting, first published in 1942. In my opinion, this is the finest book ever written on grouse hunting.

Speaking in the third person, Foster wrote:
“…….in his right hand barrel during the earlier part of the season, he finds No. 9 chilled shot the most effective with perhaps No. 8 in the left barrel for the longer ranges. Later in the season when the leaves are off, the shots longer, one may use No. 8’s in the right and 7 ½ in the left thinking to take advantage of the more sustained velocities of the of the heavier shot over the longer ranges. However, this is not the real answer for, with the change to the larger pellet, he is sacrificing his required density for it should be remembered that while there are some 585 No. 9 chilled shot in an ounce, there are but 345 No. 7 ½. This change to larger shot in a gun bored for the purpose of density of pattern with smaller shot is one of the chief sources of crippling and your thoughtful grouse hunter will prefer to stick to his No. 9’s (in the right barrel) and No. 8’s (in the left barrel) throughout the season and, at the same time, to his conservative ranges.”

[Rich Anderson]

I would take into consideration that in Mr. Foster's day the birds were far more plentiful and one could pick and choose his shots. Unfortunately this is not the case in grouse country (or any game country) today. Also I don't shoot a 1oz load but stick to 7/8 in my 16's and if the woodcock flights are in I like a 3/4oz load in the 20.
What works for one person might not work for another but 8's early on and 7's or 71/2 in the later portion of the season has worked for longer than I care to admit:)

[Tom Flanigan]

I would take into consideration that in Mr. Foster's day the birds were far more plentiful and one could pick and choose his shots. Unfortunately this is not the case in grouse country (or any game country) today. Also I don't shoot a 1oz load but stick to 7/8 in my 16's and if the woodcock flights are in I like a 3/4oz load in the 20.
What works for one person might not work for another but 8's early on and 7's or 71/2 in the later portion of the season has worked for longer than I care to admit:)


I agree with everything you said with one small exception. It's true that there were more birds in Foster's and my grandfather's day, but I doubt that they passed on any fair shots. My coverts are similar to what Forster experienced, so his recommendations hit home with me. And not only because I came to the same overall conclusions but because the rules haven't changed for my type of coverts. Less birds but those that offer shots, present the same type of targets at the same ranges.

As I mentioned, not all grouse coverts are the same. So I wouldn't be foolishly presumptuous and try to tell others what to use. I can only relate my experiences and those of some who came before me with similar circumstances.

I remember one old time grouse hunter telling me as a boy, "what you need for partridge is an ounce of #9 and it don't make no difference what gauge you fire it from." Not sure I totally agree, but I understood his point.

[Dean Romig]

I would venture to say the grouse covers in Bill Foster's day were much the same as today with consideration to where a fellow chooses to hunt. In many covers open shots are the norm and in others shooting through the foliage is the norm. I'm lucky enough to have it both ways where I hunt in Vt.
Living here in Andover and being quite familiar with the places Bill and his cronies hunted I'm pretty sure he could pick his shots when he needed to. In other words, don't risk the shot if it looks impossible or if you'll only maim the bird.

I'm going to guess the last etching is of a grouse taken at about 45 yards with the left barrel of his Cyl/Full Parker twenty and judging by the devastation of the bird, there wasn't much left for the cook to work with.....:eek:


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[Tom Flanigan]

Some things stay the same. I would imagine that any of us would pass up any shot that was questionable. The worst days for hunting grouse are windy days. They are on edge and rarely hold for a dog. They flush silently and generally at the edge of range. It always amazed me that grouse flushes can be so loud but yet then can fly away at the same speed with no noise at all.

[scott kittredge]

I am thinking that if you can hit a clay pigeon at 30 to 35 yds and make little pieces out of it ,I don't see too many grouse getting past that pattern in a "hole" I used 1oz 6's in the past with a 20 ga so I wouldn't hit it with too many pellets. but 7/8ths oz of 7's or 7 1/2's at 1150 work wonders.
scott

[Tom Flanigan]

Good point. But my patterning with #9 showed empty spots that a bird could potential fly through at the longer distances. It would take a lucky bird to do it though

[Rich Anderson]

There is no foliage between that clay pigeon and the shot like there is with a grouse. I have had dense foliage prevent the shot from ever reaching the bird.

[Dean Romig]

Me too Rich..... or at least that's an excuse I use when the opportunity presents itself...





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[Tom Flanigan]

So true....that's one more reason to use fine shot. You have a much better chance of some getting through the thick stuff and finding its mark. This is one of the reasons that I always thought that 7 1/2 shot is a handicap. With 9's you have over 200 more shot working for you. Believe me, those extra pellets make a big difference in tight cover.

In my mind, the perfect grouse gun would be a 16 bore throwing and ounce of 9's or 10's. I haven't yet loaded 10's but I am going to get a bag for the fall. I used a 16 bore with both barrels cylinder for years. I considered it the perfect grouse gun but unfortunately is was a Specialty grade Smith. I sold it when I decided to use Parkers exclusively for all my hunting, But I do regret selling that gun. I wish I had it back.

[Daryl Corona]

There is no foliage between that clay pigeon and the shot like there is with a grouse. I have had dense foliage prevent the shot from ever reaching the bird.

Hence the need for a higher energy pellet..... like a 7 1/2.:eek:

[Brett Hoop]

The problem with grouse is they are grouse. I am certain the perfect grouse gun is in fact the next one.

[Tom Flanigan]

I always thought my Smith lightweight 16 bore was the perfect grouse gun. I killed a lot of birds with that gun and even used it from time to time on early wild pheasants. But it wasn't a Parker so it had to go. I never found an appropriate Parker with cut barrels. I could have opened my chokes on the IC guns, but I would never do that.

With respect to larger pellets being better for shooting through brush, it just isn't so. No pellet can hit brush and stay on point of aim. I used to laugh when people talked about using brush buster calibers for deer. The theory was that a larger bore with a heavier slower bullet could shoot through brush while a smaller higher speed bullet couldn't. The pseudo experts long ago said that calibers like the .35 Remington were good in the east and calibers like the .243 for the west. They were full of applesauce. The .243 is a great deer caliber east or west. I have taken deer with the .243 while shooting many crop damage permit deer. We'd shoot them and then call the warden to come pick them up in the barn. I used many calibers from the .243 through .300 Winchester magnum, just to see how the different calibers stacked up. None of those calibers, including the .35 Remington, would shoot to point of aim if any obstruction whatsoever was hit.

And so it is with shotgun pellets. A larger pellet, whatever the size, will never continue to point of aim if it hits an obstruction. What you need is a large number of fine shot. The more shot you put in the air, the better chance you have of some not being obstructed and shooting to the point of aim.

[scott kittredge]

Will let me tell you about a true story of a 2 woodcock hunters. these guys have been hunting together for years and shoot lot of skeet birds. one guy used a 28 ga 3/4 oz 7 1/2's he is the shooter in this story. they only shot at "high birds" as most seasoned woodcock hunters do. 1st hunters dog on point ,goes in for the flush , bird goes up high to get out of the foliage, takes his "safe" shot. At the shot hunter 2 gets knock off his feet 70yds away high up on a hill . Yes he was shot, after the fish and game did their investigation they could not believe that that shot happed," freak accident". the guy the got hit in the thick poplar thicket and dense foliage was hit with 52 7 1/2's. most from lower arm pits to belt line. F and G said shot must have been closer but they did the hole reenactment over found the proof that they were telling the truth. After that I always believed if you can see a bird in the woods you can hit that bird if you are on it. This story was not meant to pick on the shooter, just shows what shot can do in the woods. I just don't see trees eating all the shot.
scott

[Tom Flanigan]

Good story. But what I am dealing with in thick grouse cover is the law of averages. This tells me that the more shot you get in the air, the better the chance of some getting through to point of aim. That was an unfortunate incident, but I highly doubt any of those pellets hit any obstruction. They pellets that hit the hunter obviously found a hole in the cover to travel that far.

[Rich Anderson]

I tried some #10 shot once. I didn't care for it in the grouse/ woodcock coverts as it just didn't penetrate and caused cripples. It was wonderful on quail however where the shots tended to be more open.