Can't give up on it

[MARK KIRCHER]

Many years back I purchased a 20 bore Ithaca Flues 4E with Damascus barrels. I bought it unseen along with a Parker from a Florida gun dealer. I had bought many guns from him in the past and took his word on the gun (it was priced as almost a gift)
The gun fit me perfectly and was in better than expected condition (it weighs 5 1/4 lbs). I fired it a few times and witnessed smoke returning through the ejector slide on one barrel. The ejector appeared to have been reworked and I was not comfortable.
I sought counsel from a gunsmith friend. I explained the issues and when he test fired it the first time The Barrel split (at the edge of the chamber) in his hand. The forend cracked and broke into two pieces. Luckily not real harm was done to him. His hand did sting for a bit. Scary stuff. His determination was the forcing cones had been lengthened incorrectly causing the barrel wall to become to thin.
Anyway - we have spent years searching for a set of Damascus flues 20 bore barrels. No luck.

My question to all is - Has anyone had experience with barrel inserts for making this 20 a 28 gauge? I have no experience in this area. I am not afraid to spend some money on the gun as I would really like to hunt quail with it.

Any experience and direction on ways to bring this beauty back to life would be greatly appreciated.

[Dean Romig]

That's pretty sad Mark. What a pretty set of barrels.

I think you need to send it to Brad. He saved a set of barrels for me that had been "irreparably" damaged. I hope yours don't have any ring bulges at the forcing cones.

I think some precision welding needs to be done before anything else, and Brad certainly is the man for that.





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[Rick Losey]

Mark - while you look- why not install a set of fluid steel and get it back shooting as a 20? - I have seen some Flues 20 field grades at some responsible prices -

[Rich Anderson]

I'm with Dean on contacting Brad. I think he will be at the Southern so if your going bring the gun. A face to face conversation is always better. I have used Briley sub gauge tubes in a skeet gun and would think you could have a set of 28's made for it.

[John Campbell]

Mr. Kircher:
That appears to be a serious split. In a bad place. Bachelder is indeed a good choice. But so is Kirk Merrrington - a certified barrel maker from the UK. Either fellow can assess your options. Kirk's website is:

http://www.merringtongun.com

[Steve Huffman]

Just wondering what load / shell you were shooting when this happened ? Beautiful gun by the way !!!!

[Drew Hause]

Mark: thank you for posting that frightening illustration of the result of misguided and inexpert chamber work. Was the chamber extended also? What is the current chamber length? Researcher has established that at least until 1926 (after introduction of the NID) 20g Ithaca chambers were 2 1/2"

I took the liberty of sharing the story and one image about 1/3 down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

I do not believe Brad or Kirk would attempt to repair the chamber, but anxiously await the rest of the story. It might be possible to sleeve the chamber and barrels past the thin area, but as a 20g it would probably need to be to .410.
Fitting a donor 20g fluid steel Flues barrel would likely be much cheaper.
I would also not suggest full length tube inserts in light of the cracked chamber wall.

[MARK KIRCHER]

Men
Thank you all for the thoughts and responses. I have recieved a pm with a potential matched set. Pictures forthcoming.
I also exchanged pm with Brad. He has agreed to look at the barrels.
Drew - Thank you for linking your paper. I read it last night. Very well done.
Steve I cannot sure of loads as it was many years back. I expect I would have used RST to test but cannot be sure. I am not sure either what Jason used. I am just forever thankful he was not injured.
Fingers crossed on the potential match. I will of course follow up here if we managed to save the old girl.

[Dean Romig]

Good thing Jason was not hurt. He is a wonderful guy and an excellent gunsmith - if we're thinking of the same Jason.





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[MARK KIRCHER]

My best chance for a donor set - of 26" damascus ejector barrels - will not most likely be the answer. The barrels were salvageable I believe, but guns were 40,000 (Minier) apart and lug and for-end attachment were completely different.
My Serial number is 186XXX - 1909.

So for now....It looks like the hunt continues.

[Rich Anderson]

I have seen where some Damascus barrels that were split ahead of the chambers were welded back together and usable. IIRC it was someone from the Fox group that had this done. Talk with Brad at the Southern you might be surprised at what can be done.

[Dean Romig]

It would be a shame not to be able to use those beautiful American Flag Bunting (?) barrels.





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[MARK KIRCHER]

Gun is on the way to Brad today.
Hopefully he can find a way :corn:

[MARK KIRCHER]

I spoke with Brad last Friday. he was quite taken by this gun. I am not an Ithaca guy. I have owned a few but have not really studied them - as I described earlier this gun came to me quite by accident as part of another Parker purchase - Anyway Brad was excited. McGraw engraved with "Bunting" or "Etoli" barrels. The only set of such seen on a small bore to his recollection.
This was the good news........

The bad news is the barrels could be saved. The stress cracks around the split are too severe. Whomever attempted to lengthen these chambers just went too far. The metal is too thin at the point where they need to be strong.

So the best option under the circumstances is to have Brad install tubes and make it a 28 gauge gun. Given the weight of just under 5.5lbs (if I remember correctly) and the dainty feel of the gun I think it is a good candidate for the tubes. He can save the ejectors and refinish the barrels and hopefully bring this gun back towards its former glory.

I just would not have interest in the gun with steel barrels on it. I could match them up, but then I would just sell the gun. I almost feel obligated to save this gun in its original form (or as close as I can get). I expect I am passing the point of ever being able to get my money back out of it but I am well past the point of concern with that now.

So if all goes well I will post pics in about six-eight months of the finished product. I can always use another 28 gauge anyway. Thanks all for the input.

[Reggie Bishop]

Glad you are going to bring it back to life. It is a beautiful little gun.

[Drew Hause]

Disappointing, but I applaud your decision to find a way to use that treasure. Did Brad tell you the length of the chambers?

Ithaca called those barrels "American Flag"; used on No. 4. No. 2 & 3 were "Chain".

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20991622/409894739.jpg

1917 E.C. Simmons, St. Louis

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20991622/410661228.jpg

Another 4E Flues courtesy of Walt Snyder

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20991622/342319658.jpg

[Rich Anderson]

Sometimes we just have to suck it up and do what we need to in order to save a piece of American history. Replacing the damaged barrels with steel ones would have been ok in my opinion if it was the only option but being able to use the original ones is a big, big plus. You can never have to many 28's and the grouse and woodcock won't know the difference anyway.

My hat's off to you for saving a truly wonderful treasure.:bowdown::bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

Mark, I applaud your choice - I would have done exactly the same.

With the 28 gauge tubes you will still have a rare and wonderful 20 gauge Ithaca made 'shootable' again. Congratulations!





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[MARK KIRCHER]

I received the Ithaca 4E 20 gauge - now lined to 28 gauge back from Brad this week. Damascus "American Flag" barrels redone - pictures attached. I will get the gun out for some Sporting Clays this weekend. I am looking forward knocking down some quail with it sometime later this year or next.

[Reggie Bishop]

I love that gun! I also have an Ithaca 4E that I think a lot of. You did good on this one!

[Drew Hause]

Mark: were the barrels sleeved (tubes replaced) or lined?
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20580224

And a noble job well done by both you and Brad!

[Dean Romig]

How does it balance now and what is its weight?






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[MARK KIRCHER]

Drew -

Nice Catch! They were lined (I edited my post)- Original barrels with an Approximately 8 inch liner inserted and welded at breech. Now accepting 28 gauge shells!

[MARK KIRCHER]

Dean -

Weight and balance are virtually the same- I have a digital package scale here at work and it showed an additional 4 oz. I could not perceive any difference when I lift it. And I did not note any change with the finger under the receiver balancing maneuver.

It sure comes up nice for me. I expect I will again be able to shoot it well - keeping in mind it has been 10 years since I shot it last. We'll see :corn:

[Reggie Bishop]

Would love to see a full length photo of this little Ithaca!

[MARK KIRCHER]

Reggie - I will try a post a couple next week

[MARK KIRCHER]

Reggie
Here are a couple more pics. I am no photographer. Best i could do with my cell phone. Hope you like. I added the bottom quail scene and woodcock trigger guard too.

[MARK KIRCHER]

Trigger guard

[MARK KIRCHER]

Other side

[charlie cleveland]

mark i bet the work on the extractors is pretty tough...charlie

[MARK KIRCHER]

Charlie
She is an ejector gun. They are nice and tight. Almost too strong. Gun closes hard. Nothing a few hundred rounds wont cure :)

[Reggie Bishop]

Very nice little Ithaca!

[MARK KIRCHER]

Well - I have owned this gun for Umpteen years and last week I finally got some blood on it! I hope Mr. McGraw would be proud!
1909 20 (Now 28 bore) 26 inch I/C MOD splinter DT Pistol Grip American Flag Damacus - Lined by Bacheldor after barrel wall failure detailed above. RST 5/8 and 3/4 oz loads (I recommend the 3/4)
I Managed to shoot a double to boot!
Finally! :)

[Rick Losey]

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[Reggie Bishop]

Nice job Mark!

[frank aloia]

frank aloia

[Dean Romig]

What a pretty gun now. Congrats Mark!





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[Rich Anderson]

Usefulness returned, I love it congrats on the save.

[Daryl Corona]

I too am impressed with the outcome.:bowdown: What a perfect gauge to pop quail.

[Mills Morrison]

"Can't give up on it" could be the story of my collecting career. That is a great save Mark

[Eric Eis]

Well Mark it was a long time come (and a rough road too) congrats that everything finally came together.

[Justin Julian]

With a 28 gauge shot cup exiting out a 20 gauge muzzle, what kind of patterns are you getting? I would imagine it would be something similar to "spreader" loads.

[Rich Anderson]

I believe this has full length 28ga inserts now.

[MARK KIRCHER]

8 inch liner inserted and welded at breach. Choked barrels to I/C MOD. I did not pattern on a board. I patterned on a sporting clays course with 5/8 oz RST. Shot the yellow (smallbore) course here. Targets inside 30 yds. Still plenty of choke in both barrels. Clay targets were broken well - not just chipped. Also reached out to 30 + yds. on quail but better with 3/4 oz load.
Fun to shoot. I don't shoot spreaders. I have not had good luck with them when I tried. Inconsistent - holes in patterns. I felt very confident with this gun. when I was on them they fell.

[Brian Dudley]

Must be you got that lockup fixed on it?

[MARK KIRCHER]

Still tight to open and close. Wearing in with use. No lockup with RST

[Eric Eis]

Still tight to open and close. Wearing in with use. No lockup with RST

Could be thickness of the rim of some shells. Had that problem with my DH Damascus. I know Bill M. recommended a reamer and make a pass or two to correct the problem but I didn't because I wanted to keep it totally original. But others have had good luck with doing it.

[Shawn Wayment]

8 inch liner inserted and welded at breach. Choked barrels to I/C MOD. I did not pattern on a board. I patterned on a sporting clays course with 5/8 oz RST. Shot the yellow (smallbore) course here. Targets inside 30 yds. Still plenty of choke in both barrels. Clay targets were broken well - not just chipped. Also reached out to 30 + yds. on quail but better with 3/4 oz load.
Fun to shoot. I don't shoot spreaders. I have not had good luck with them when I tried. Inconsistent - holes in patterns. I felt very confident with this gun. when I was on them they fell.

That's my experience with spreader loads too. I stopped ordering them.

[Daryl Corona]

That's my experience with spreader loads too. I stopped ordering them.

Same here.

[Mills Morrison]

I don't like spreaders either.