Old Ammo

[Rich Anderson]

Recently I found a box of Remington Kleenbore Nitro Express 28ga paper shells. These are loaded with 3/4 oz of shot. The thing thats puzzeling is that these are 2 7/8 inches in length. I have a box of Peters Target loads also 28ga that are 2 3/4 in length and 3/4 oz of shot. The Remington shells are green while the Peters are blue. Both are paper hulls.

Is the difference in color due to RemingtonVS Peters? When were 2 7/8 length produced? Another difference is that the Remingtons are roll crimped while the Peters arn't.

[Mark Landskov]

The green and blue were standard colors for quite awhile. If your box has the DuPont oval logo, it is post 1933. The green Kleanbore line, in the green box, was introduced in 1931. In 1939, Remington introduced the star crimp. It took until 1947 to phase in all lines. Late 1933 saw the corrugated paper shell body from Remington. I don't have much info on Peters. The 2-7/8" 28 bore was also made by WRA Co. and is shown in the 1914 and 1920 catalogs, but seems to be gone by 1928. I would think that the big companies did not like to be 'one-upped' by the others, so Remington or Peters probably adopted the longer shell during the same time frame. I do not have any Remington info on that particular size. I hope that wasn't more confusing than helpful!

[Dean Romig]

Very informative Mark - thanks.

[Rich Anderson]

Mark-Thank you very much for the information. A person could make quite a hobby out of studying these old shells. I buy them for decoration for the "Gun Room" and just happened to notice the unusual (to me) length of 2 7/8. Were early 28's chambered for this longer length or were they used in std 2 3/4 chambers?

[Mark Landskov]

TheModel (19)12 was not made in 28 gauge in 1914 or 1928. It is an option in 1941 for the Model 12 and 37, but not the 21 (not even custom!) According to Madis, the 28 gauge was added to the Model 12 line-up in 1934 and dropped in 1958. The Model 21 was chambered for the 28 in 1936. Nothing about chamber lengths. There seems to be a lot of differences between Mr. Madis' book and actual catalogs. I guess a person had to inquire with the factory to make sure. As for Western, they bought WRA Co. in 1931. Boxes were not marked as such until 1939. Olin came into the picture in 1944. Boxes were marked 'Olin' in 1946. I have lotsa good Winchester info! Cheers!

[Mark Landskov]

Here is a photo for your enjoyment!
Left to Right: 50x3-1/4", 4 gauge NPE, 10 gauge, 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 28 gauge (2-7/8")

Hmmmm...as for Madis, that is a challenge!

[charlie cleveland]

nice looking shells what brand of shell is the 4 ga. were is the 8 ga and 3 ga at. just a thought charlie

[Rich Anderson]

I have Riffles book on the M12 but not the Middas book. One of the guns I wish I had back was a M12 28ga grade 5 skeet with a solid rib. I also had a matching M42. Some are kept some are tarded and some will always be missed...those two are missed:banghead: I trade a Win 101 Pigeon grade 3 bbl set (20,28,410) for the M12 and M42 but can't remember for the life of me what those were traded for...probably a Parker.

[Mark Landskov]

The photo is old. I do have a fairly complete line-up now. The 4 is a WRA Co. (I have a loaded Eley). The 10 and 16 are black powder WRA Co. The 12 is a WRA Co. Leader. The 28 is WRA Co. I am awaiting a larger-than-4 bore NPE. When that gets here, I will have a photo with it, 4, 8, 10, 10A, 12, 14, 16, 20, 28 and 32. The weekend of Puglisi's event, my youngest daughter and I will be in Minneapolis to see Ringo and His All Starr Band. Cheers!

[charlie cleveland]

mark a very nice collection . wish i had a loaded 4 ga american shell. i also have a 4 ga ely shell loaded. they are kind of like parkers to look at beautifull. i passed up a 18 ga umc a while back. well hind sight is always good... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

When the 28-gauge was first introduced in North America in the Parker Bros. doubles and the Remington Arms Co. singles, the "standard" load was 1 3/4 drams equiv. and 5/8 ounces of shot in a 2 1/2 inch case. However, virtually from the get go, the longer 2 7/8 inch 28-gauge case was available from the ammo companies. But just like the longer shells in larger gauges, back prior to WW-I, the longer shells only got more and better wadding from the ammo factories, not a heavier payload. In his 1910 book The American Shotgun, Chas. Askins, the elder, writes of handloading 3/4 ounce loads in 2 7/8 inch cases for his 6 3/4 pound, 30-inch barrel Parker Bros. 28-gauge. The 2 1/2 inch 5/8 ounce load remained the "standard" 28-gauge load until 1932 when Western Cartridge Co. brought out their Super-X 28-gauge in the 2 7/8 inch case with a 3/4 ounce load and a max charge of progressive burning powder. The other ammo companies soon followed suit. The introduction of this more powerful 28-gauge shell caused Ithaca Gun Co. to begin cataloging 28-gauge NID doubles again. Ithaca had quit cataloging 28-gauge doubles with the introduction of the NID in 1926, and its availability in .410-bore. They did make NID 28-gauge guns between 1926 and 32, but they were not catalogue items.

The Winchester Model 12 wasn't introduced in 28-gauge until 1937, and it was introduced chambered for 2 7/8 inch shells. Shortly after WW-II the ammo companies standardized the 28-gauge shells at 2 3/4 inch and later 28-gauge Model 12s were chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. Since then various ammo companies have been stuffing 7/8 and even a full ounce in 2 3/4 inch 28-gauge shells!

Our good buddies at RST are making delightful little 2 1/2 inch 28-gauge shells again.

[Dean Romig]

Our good buddies at RST are making delightful little 2 1/2 inch 28-gauge shells again.

I'm in complete agreement with that statement Dave - I've bought several flats of their 28 ga. loads and love 'em.

Great post - thanks Dave.

[calvin humburg]

Mark,

Do collect cartridges? Whats the headstamp on the 50 3 1/4? ch

[Dave Suponski]

A little "Off Topic" here but I think we need to give correct information. The Model 12 in 12 gauge was introduced in 1914 not 1919 as previously stated. Both the 16 and 12 were introduced in the same year.

[Francis Morin]

The Model 1912 was introduced in 20 gauge with 25" barrel in 1912- the Model 1912 in 16 and 12 gauge was introduced in 1914- In 1912 the 20, 16 and 12 gauge Model 1912's (nickel steel barrels) became known as the Model 12- WRA saved a few pennies by eliminating the 19- same gun, same perch belly stock in the field grades (until 1935)-- Nickel steel was still the stamping until about 1933, when Winchester proof Steel (AISI 4140) replaced it, after the Fubar with the stainless barrels-

The 3" Mag M12 came out in 1935, and the first year for the M12 in 28 gauge was 1937- Not sure, as I have about as much interest in .410 shotguns as I do kissing Monica Lewinski at the next Veteran's Day Blast at the Polish Falcon hall in Cicero, IL- but I believe the M42 came out in about 1933- Tommy C. Johnson and Wm. Roehmer (who help[ed design the Model 21) developed that shotgun--

If I mislead anyone interested in either Model 1912's or Model 12's, my apologies- but at least I spell "Murphey" as Murphy- and to answer the ? on the error in the Madis book- "The Winchester Model Twelve 1 of 1000" it is, like the Murphey/Murphy spelling thing, that sorta error-see pg. 148- the blonde Lady actress with a M12 much like my 1948 Pigeon Grade Trap- her name is Ann Sothern"- not Southern- as the great Casey "Stinky" Stengel once said- "Hey, you can always look it up in da book" and I did- Maybe Mr. Madis has British ancestry- the Limeys are always adding an extra "u" here and there- honor becomes honour- etc- who knew??

[Mark Landskov]

Calvin, the headstamp is 'ELDORADO / 50 SHARPS'. I collected for 35 years and gave it up. My WRA Co. collection had some gaps that cost many hundreds of dollars to fill. The last one I bought was a 40-60 Colt for $200.00. I sold them all and made a nice profit. I started back recently with shotshells. Specifically, Winchester, Remington, UMC, and Eley-Kynoch. Paper and all brass only. I kept the 50 Sharps for size comparison.

[Bill Murphy]

So, Richard, tell me about the #5 engraved 28 gauge solid rib pigeon grade. Was it an original factory engraved gun? How did you document it? How about the similar Model 42? How did you document that one? Were they Ulrich engraved guns or later?

[Rich Anderson]

Bill, The M12 and M42 were engraved in a std Win #5 pattern when compared to the engraveing patterns listed by Winchester. The M42 was undoubtly restocked as it had (so did the M12) wood that was to die for.

I doubt they were factory original as I never saw anyplace where they were signed. this was almost 20 years ago so memory fades. They were nice guns upgrades or not and I wish I had them back. I came across the name of the person who bought the M42 the other day maybe I'll give him a call when the bank fills back up. That 101 3 bbl set would be nice to have back as well.