Vintage Barrel Steel Composition

[Drew Hause]

I had wanted to hold some of the good stuff for a future article, but realized there is a LONG way to go for a reasonably complete summary SO I went ahead and added what I have here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Scroll down to the bottom for the short version summary :)

Many thanks to Dave Suponski, Ron Graham, Raimey Ellenburg and Walt Snyder for their contributions, and Adam W. Haskins, P. E., Metallurgist at Metals Engineering and Testing Laboratories, METL in Phoenix, Arizona.

[Bruce Day]

Drew, thank you for compiling and presenting this research. I have printed a copy and will refer this paper to others. Facts beat opinions any day to those who read and learn.

[Drew Hause]

It's been a lot of work, but great fun Bruce. And this all never would have come together without the contributions of so many here, esp. Dave Suponski, Jeff Kuss, and our friend the 'gold towel guy'. :)

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver. None so blind as those who will not see.

[Bruce Day]

Drew, several issues:

1. You identified an English steel maker named Titanic. Is this company the source of Parker Titanic barrels?

2. You identified several Krupp barrels. Lefever used Krupp barrels, but of which Krupp steel?

3. There has long been debate in the Parker community about whether Parker fluid steel grades were truly different or if the grade steels were the same and marketing was the difference. Your paper shows different compositions for Trojan, Vulcan, Parker Steel and Titanic. I think that settled that long standing question, agree ?

[Dean Romig]

3. There has long been debate in the Parker community about whether Parker fluid steel grades were truly different or if the grade steels were the same and marketing was the difference. Your paper shows different compositions for Trojan, Vulcan, Parker Steel and Titanic. I think that settled that long standing question, agree ?


I think I'll read Dave's article again...

Seems to me there were some slight differences in a few of the steels Parker used.





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[Drew Hause]

1. Robert Mushet's "Titanic Steel" was an early titanium alloy; different stuff.

2. Lefever and the other U.S. makers used Krupp Fluss Stahl but the composition may well have changed pre-1900 vs. pre-WWI.

3. Parker Steel = Acid Bessemer Resulphurized Rephosphorized AISI 1109 Carbon Steel. Somewhat similar to Parker Decarbonized or "Plain" Steel.

4. Titanic, post-WWI Vulcan, and Trojan were essentially the same; AISI 1030 and 1035 Medium Carbon steels.
Titanic did have low levels of both nickel and chromium compared to the others, but it would not be an "alloy steel".

5. Pre-1900 Vulcan was AISI 1015 with a lower tensile strength than AISI 1030.

We should however have pre-1900, pre-WWI, and post-WWI samples of each.

[Richard Dow]

Drew: Thank you for your post.

[Drew Hause]

More interesting stuff on this Witten steel thread
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=445562&page=1

It is clear that even by 1880 the various steel producers were able to manufacture high carbon steel, and were working on the optimal manganese, and other alloy, concentrations. By 1890, Witten & Bofors were producing AISI 1044 which is good stuff.
Krupp was having problems getting enough manganese into their carbon steels at that point. Later Fluss Stahl was 1045 so they figured it out.
Whitworth was a medium carbon steel that also didn't quite have enough manganese to fit AISI criteria.

[Drew Hause]

I've revised one of the documents to cover the evolution of iron & steel components in pattern welded barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V-qkkHrs7yJakMkakxkiMx8FzJjGXUg0EDm8-_AQPiA/edit

I have a crolle and a twist barrel segment for composition analysis

Strength & composition of vintage new fangled steel barrels is still here ;)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

[Drew Hause]

Just got the report from a Parker DD 6 Iron "Turkish" segment Dave graciously provided. The tensile strength was quite similar to other crolle specimens at 55,500 psi.
Composition analysis now of 3 crolle and 1 twist specimens confirms the steel component in crolle barrels was low carbon low alloy AISI 1002 – 1005.
Much more detailed articles will follow in DGJ.

[Dean Romig]

Great work, as usual Drew.





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[Kirk Mckinney]

Yes I am new to vintage Sxs and reloading. Great article on barrel composites and strengths. Am I understanding it correctly. I would have to shoot a load that makes about 65k plus psi to burst my barrels on my 1929 sterlingworth is that correct ???

[Drew Hause]

Oh my Kirk. But there are no inappropriate questions concerning double gun barrel safety.

1. The A.H. Fox Gun Co. used Krupp steel on the graded guns from the beginning, with “Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel” for the lower priced Sterlingworth. A Sterlingworth brochure in 1911 mentioned “chrome-nickel and vanadium steel” barrels and “Chromox High Pressure Fluid Steel” was introduced in 1912
https://books.google.com/books?id=eGvdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg

2. I am not aware of a tensile strength report for Sterlingworth steel. Bohler "Antinit" (Rostfrei Laufstahl chrome-molybdenum-vanadium introduced 1912) was and is extremely good stuff with a reported tensile strength of 138,000 psi.

3. Tensile strength is only one part of the bursting formula. If the barrel is made of fluid steel with a 100,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 10.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow’s refers to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly. There is essentially NO applicable bursting formula for shotgun barrels.

4. Wallace H. Coxe, in “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” published by E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. in 1931 cites a study in which a fluid steel barrel was cut to 9” and capped, then a series of progressively increasing pressure loads fired. The barrel cap was blown off and barrel split at 2 Long Tons LUP or about 5,600 psi using Burrard’s conversion to modern piezoelectric transducers.

5. Sherman Bell's destructive testing of a Parker GH with Dam 3 and a Parker VH with Vulcan Fluid Steel was published in The Double Gun Journal Vol. 10, Issue 4, Winter, 1999, “Finding Out For Myself” Part II and Vol. 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005, “Finding Out For Myself” Part IX.
Both guns were subjected to sequentially higher pressure loads at about 2,000 pounds/square inch (psi) increments. The GH testing started at 11,900 psi and one chamber ruptured at 29,620 psi. The VH started with a Proof Load of 18,560 psi. Both chambers bulged at 29,620 psi and ruptured at 31,620 psi.

6. No one on the internet can tell you at what pressure YOUR Sterlingworth barrels would burst. Recommendations for barrel evaluation may be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

[Kirk Mckinney]

Drew thanks for the clarification. As I said I'm new. Could I ask you what you would consider a safe pressure for this gun. 6000 and down 7000 and down, 8000. If it were yours where would the limit be for you. My skeet loads are 6150 and down. But hope to develop a non toxic load for ducks. But I want to be safe. And want to preserve the integrity of my beautiful gun.

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Kirk
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog recommended 12g loads (courtesy of David Noreen)
DuPont, “E.C.”, and “Schultze” Bulk Smokeless 3 Dram 1 1/8 oz.
Dense Infallible 20 - 24 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot
Dense Ballistite 20 - 22 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot

1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Cool. Thanks a million Drew. So I guess I was playing it real safe. If I could ask just one more quick question. Do you think it would hurt my barrels to shoot bismuth with a fiber wad ? Thanks again for the info it will help me very much. See you in the field

[Drew Hause]

Bismuth is as soft as lead. You should ask the manufacturer for the load pressure; RST is happy to provide that information.