Captain E.C. Crossman and a .410 Parker

[Francis Morin]

Today I took the newly purchased PH 12 and two boxes of RST shells to an area farm for some practice on pigeons. The Parker and I fared rather well, the "sky-carp"- not so well.

Had coffee with my farmer friend, we ended up at an area (Barry Co.) antiques sale- he's big on cast iron toy models of farm equipment, no guns per se- some fly rods and reels, etc. Bought a "grab bag" of 1930's sporting magazines- June 1934 National Sportsman pages 36-38 the good Cap'n Crossman being firearms editor.

Very timely for today his discussion of House Bill 9066 re: registration and licensing on firearms sales-

Then his review of the Win M54 Sniper Hornet rifle--"A fine bull-gun had been spoiled ----- when Winchester failed to put a .30 cal. hole in this here musket. Sorta the way I feel when I see a lovely Parker double gun with a triflin' .410 bore in it"!!

Huum- guess I can add the Cap'n to my list of deceased 12 bore shotgunners of note: Captain Paul Curtis, Ray P. Holland, Corey Ford and of course, Nash Buckingham.

To be fair- anybody could buy a new .410 Parker from a dealer in 1934- the few produced compared to the 12 bore, and the demise of Parker production in 1940??- adds to the market value of any .410 Parker today, no denying that.

If it were legal on the PGCA to do so, I would gladly advise of any such small bore for sale I might encounter- the chances of that occuring are twofold; slim and none!!:eek:

[Rich Anderson]

When I was just a lad we would spend every Sunday at the lake sailing. Dad had an 18ft boat that we raced every week. If we finished in time (depending on the wind) perhaps we would go skiing or tubing behind a members speed boat.

My brother and I were the crew on the sailboat and we often asked dad why we had a sailboat and not a cool ski boat. His reply went something like this "Any damn fool can run a power boat up and down a lake. A sailboat takes a fair degree of skill"

The small bores are my sailboats. A 25 at skeet with a 12 is one thing its quite different IMHO with a 410 or 28. When and If I ever get a Parker 410 it will be the second happiest day in my life. I say the second because the first will have been winning the lottery.

[Francis Morin]

I learned also to love sailing- summer camp up in Northern MI. Ice boating is also a real thrill.

In another issue of the National Sportsman I bought, the back page shows actor John Barrymore at his private skeet range, tweed shooting coat and possibly a Model 21 (1934 issue) and the No. 4 peg. His stance is very wide, but if it worked for him, sure. Waiting his turn, and with what might be a Rem M11 with recoil pad and a Cutts Comp. is a young but dapper Clark Gable. The article mentioned that Gable shot four rounds with his host Mr. Barrybore- scoring 6/25, 8/25, 11/25 and finally 12/25. That was with the 12 gauge.

I can see the challenge for the skeet shooters in using a .410, where I believe a visible chip from the clay counts as a dead bird on the score sheet. However, in the field, where the name of the game is dead birds and minimum crippling losses, I am with the late Mr. Buckingham 100%.
I believe he wanted pumps and autoloaders and .410's banned for waterfowling, and not the 8 gauges.:duck::duck::duck::duck::duck:

[Dean Romig]

In defense of the diminutive .410 bore, at reasonable yardage and with a densely choked shot pattern, a miss is a clean miss while a hit is usually a direct hit. Always keeping in mind, of course, that the center of any target, no matter how large or small that target is, is always the same size. I think we see easily as many crippled ducks and geese shot with 10 and 12 gauge guns as we do upland birds shot with the .410.


That oughtta bring on a heated discussion.... think I'll go put on my flak jacket :shock:











.

[Francis Morin]

I agree- "skybustin'" is the bane of all of us waterfowlers who frequent public refuge hunting areas each Fall. A shell limit helps, but sadly, that is a fact of life. I also think in retrospect, as Nash Buckingham was raised with 12-10 and even 8 bores for quail (12) and waterfowl at Wapanonca (10 & 8) in the late 1890's- 1920 era- that may have influenced his views on the .410--

FYI- watch your mail at the Stutz-Bearcat service center- Editor back then Wm. H. Foster also writes about a quail hunt down in Dixie- even mentions his 20 Parker- I'm going to send you a copy from the magazine.:bigbye:

[Rich Anderson]

I haven't used a 12ga to hunt anything in decades. My two greatest assests in the Uplands are Gunner and Daisy a couple of very capable GSP.

I have shot many a duck over decoys with a 20ga skeet gun and plenty of wild Pheasants with a 28. Once again IMHO a 12ga with 1 1/8 oz of shot isn't needed for a Grouse, Woodcock, or Quail over a solid pointer. While my go to rabbit gun is a Winchester M42 I really don't hunt birds much with one unless a certain friend and I head to the Hunt Club for Quail and he allows me the pleasure of using his VHE 410 skeet gun.

Dad had an ice boat as well for a couple of winters. That was one cold and wild ride down the frozen lake.

[Dean Romig]

Thank you Francis, I'll watch for it. Did Foster mention which of his Parker twenties he used on that hunt?

[Francis Morin]

Almost a 1930's spin on today's -- "What's Not To Like" comment. pretty hard to fault any Parker 20 bore for "Deep Dixie Bobwhites"-- If Warren Buffett were "footing the bill" for me: 1921 era AHE 20- O frame of course- 28 barrels choked cyl. and imp. cyl- std rib, straight hand stock to SBP, front trigger hinged- 1.75" downpitch- zero cast, splinter forearm, 14.385" LOP to front trigger, 1.5" DAC, 2.15" DAH, 2.75" chambers-

Don't know if Warren B is a bird hunter, like the late Sam (Wally-World-mart) Walton, who preferred Remmie 11-48's in 28 bore for quails- but I believe his "Parrot-Head" nephew Jimmy B does hunt- read about a woodcock hunt he enjoyed with Guy DeValdane a while ago!!:bigbye:

[Russ Jackson]

I have to agree with Rich, I really like the small bore guns myself ,If the dogs are holding solid ,they certainly make the small bore guns shine ,I have to confess ,I carried both of my 10 Ga, Hammer guns for Pheasant this year just for the "enjoyment " of lugging around a 10 Lb. something gun for a day each ,those old Hammer guns really are alot of fun !! , Most of the time ,this is what accompanies me to the field ,it is a PH 20 ,Ga. Twist gun ,that fits as if it was special ordered just for me ! Took 19 Pa. Roosters and 8 Preserve birds with this little gun this past season .

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Dean,

I seem to remember you mentioning that you were hauling around a .410 on your snowshoe rabbit hunt and that you didn't fare too well. Maybe I'm wrong......

Destry

[Bill Murphy]

Russ, that little PH looks to be plumb near wore out. Another few hunts and you best be looking for a replacement.

[Dean Romig]

Nope, you're absolutely right Destry. See what I mean about clean misses?

[Dave Purnell]

I don't have my books unpacked and on hand yet. But, one of the few Parker books, I can't remember which one, Johnson, Baer, or Muderlak, one had a quote by a Col. Askins on the use of the small bore shotgun. I wish I could remember it. It was funny, albeit insulting to owners of the little gun.

Dave

[Dean Romig]

I have the Askins book with that line.

[Harry Collins]

I've been shooting a .410 SXS at sporting clays the past few weeks. Though my scores are not as good, I am supprised at how well a clay breaks and how far away it will break even with #9 shot. It is choked full and full.

Harry

[Dave Suponski]

Please Harry...Don't give Dean any ideas.....:nono:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The quote is something like:

"If a man can't handle a 12 gauge shotgun he might as well take up golf"

A little .410 or 28 gauge is a fine gun for a woman that can't handle the recoil of something larger.

One of my favorite writers, Robert Ruark said:

"Use Enough Gun"

I'm a great believer in the quote.


Destry

[Harry Collins]

Destry,

You would not believe how many .410 shells I can carry in my skirt pockets....

Harriet

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Hah! I just like to keep the boys down on the earth with my opposing opinions about "them leddle four hunnard and tens" and various other ladies guns. They get to waxing a bit too poetic about them and my stomach starts to churn a bit.

DLH

[Harry Collins]

Destry,

I purchased this one for the grandchildren and cut the stock down to a 12 1/2" LOP. I think they will do fine with it on going away clays. When they get the knack of that I will start moving them out a little so they can figure out a quarting bird etc. With 2 1/2" shells there is NO recoil. Until then I'm getting to know the gun and reload for it.

Harry

[Dave Purnell]

Ya'll are killing me! The rain let up, so I went exploring the storage building for a box of books. It was in Peter Johnson's book. He states that Major Charles Askins, remarked in his book, Modern Shotguns and Loads that, while he understood the appeal the .410 gauge had for women and young people, he personally regarded it as of little value for practical shotgun shooting and that whenever he saw a full-grown man carrying one into the woods for serious hunting, he always had the feeling that nature had made a mistake in the man's sex.

Well, that's just one man's opinion. I don't actually agree with it, I just think its funny as hell.

Dave

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I'd swear it was Askins that came up with the golf quote as well. Now I'll have to dig into my books and find that one!

Apparently the good Major and myself would have gotten along quite well.


Destry

[Dean Romig]

Well you just know Destry's LHAO over that one :bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

[quote=Dean Romig;15908]Well you just know Destry's LHAO over that one :bigbye:

Ruark was my favorite writer- he told it like it was- and his advice of enough gun works for me, as I am a devout waterfowler- not a brush busting grouse/woodcock hunter anymore. Now there is another extreme for birds, Believe Elmer keith thought an Ithca NID 10 gauge Magnum was perfect for pheasants "Out West"--:duck::duck:

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, I couldn't agree with you and Elmer more. I have used nothing other than the ten for my little bit of waterfowling for the past five or six years, and for the past year or so, I have used my little tens for pheasant and grouse gunning. My little Sauer ten is ideal for preserve birds, since I try not to shoot until everyone elses guns are empty. I use the RST 1 1/8 ounce light loads and have popped some third shot type ringnecks at pretty good range with the left barrel. Next preserve season, I may break out a little 7 1/2 pound EH Grade 28" Parker ten.

[Fred Preston]

A while ago I posted of the effectiveness of the little Turkish 30" .410 I got last summer on 30+ yard pheasants. I recently bought a box of 9.3x72 brass, loaded them up with 10g Unique under a case full of Cream 'o Wheat and fire formed them to fit its chambers. I believe I can load these with up to an oz. of shot and push it at about 1200fps without going over 20,000 psi using SR 4759 which I have a lot of. I'll work up to it, checking the soft large pistol primers for pressure signs. The chamber walls are much thicker than those on a S&W mod. 29 which is designed to handle 40,000 psi. While it is light and handy, the 30" bbls. keep it from being whippy; it's not a small person's gun. It's shown below under my 10ga 3 frame 32" PH.

[Austin W Hogan]

Where did you find that Bill? I have a 30 inch lifter ten at 7 14, but the barrels are like onion skin.

I think there are some more early light ten hammerless guns hiding somewhere. I had a 26 inch that went 7 10 or so.

Bogardus liked 1 oz ahead of 4 drams plus for upland hunting. It would be nice to have the ballistics on that load; it probably had pressures similar to 7/8 oz in a twelve.

Best, Austin

[Rich Anderson]

I believe it was Clint Eastwood AKA Dirty Harry who sail "A mans got to know his limitations". If you know and abide by the limitations of the little guns they will perform well on the range and in the field. You might not get as many opportunities at wild Pheasant with a 28 VS a 12 but the ones you do get the bird is in the game bag IF you do your part.

[Francis Morin]

As I am mainly a devout waterfowler, I might put my std. 12 bores in league with your fine 28 VH- and then the 3" Mag 12's and the (hopefully someday std. 10) up to the big bores.

For early season light feathered ducks, over decoys or jump shooting float trips- a std. 12 2.75" 1 & 1/8 oz. first shot, possibly 1 & 1/4 oz. second and maybe third shots- I would venture to compare that to your upland work on pheasants with the 28 bores.

But when the weather turns and the flight birds are "In"- I use the 3" 12 mags-and I am more into pass shooting or field layout hunts then.

The "upland" hunts I have now are mainly Hunt Club preserve pheasants, our native stock here in MI is pretty much "Kaput"-- and my club hunts are less costly than a 3-5 hunt in SD or KS- if you go by the Hunting Lodge prices as seen in GSJ, etc.

I also hunt with mainly flushing dogs, and often get "rangy" shots on Roosters, where a well balanced 12 double choked M&F works best for me. I'm almost 70, still have good vision (hearing, not so great) but my reflexes aren't what they were 35 years ago.

I'm NOT a cheapskate- but every preserve pheasant that sails off unhit is a $20 bill getting airborne- SO-- just from a "cost effectiveness" point of view, I prefer a 7 & 3/8 lb. side-by with DT (ejectors optional, some of my Smiths and Parkers have them, some don't) 28" or 30" barrels, PG and splinter FE. That's my "winning combo"!!:cool:

[Russ Jackson]

Russ, that little PH looks to be plumb near wore out. Another few hunts and you best be looking for a replacement.

Bill ; I am just getting back to the conversation since yesterday ,but I will tell you ,I am trying to wear her out so I have a good excuse to look for another ,maybe I should be buying other brands ,there is just no " wear out " to a Parker !

[Bill Murphy]

I agree. Even after years of hunting and clay target shooting, my Parkers feel and look like they did when they came home. A couple of years ago, I found a PH grade 20 with Laminated Steel barrels that will be quite the light bird gun.

[Russ Jackson]

Bill ,It sounds like a great find ,I really like my little PH 20,it weighs in at 5Lb,14 Oz. almost what my 28 Ga ,weighs " 5 Lb. 12 Oz.", really nice to handle in the field ,especially nice in the thickets and grapevine tangles . Carry her all day and never really notice it !I have been shooting RST Premium # 6 shot for Pheasant and #7 1/2 for Grouse and Woodcock !

[Austin W Hogan]

There is a table of pattern density attached. It is gauge independent, based upon the aerodynamics of spheres, the initial charge weight, using 7 1/2 shot. and the percent of the initial charge in a thirty inch circle. Note that 1 ounce at .5 (50%), 7/8 ounce at .6 and 3/4 ounce at .7 are about the same at 40 yards. It would be necessary for the 1/2 ounce to pattern 100% to equal these.
The 1/6,1/3, 2/3(misprint should be 1/2) and all columns refer to the standard deviation, based on the mean number calculated from several patterns. That is 1 shot in 6 contains less than that number; 1 shot in three contains less than the second column; one half contain less than the mean, and all shots less than the last number.

Best, Austin