VHE Trap

[Dennis Eskey]

I'm looking at a VHE that is advertised as a trap gun. Other than 32" barrels and a trap forend, I see nothing to convince me that it's a factory trap model. No single trigger, no ventilated rib, no safety delete, etc. Is there a "rule of thumb" (sorry, had to ask) as to the attributes that a true factory VHE Trap would have? I probably don't have time to get a letter on it and that may not help anyway. ??? Thanks.

[Mark Conrad]

The true test are the stock dimensions. Shooters liked double triggers and they are more relieable than the early SST. Most trap guns had safties but they were non-auto. If the stock dimensions are 1 3/8" x 2" x 14 1/2" or close to this, I would say the gun was intended for trap use.

Mark

[Dennis Eskey]

Mark, thankyou. Good points. No concern with the lack of the ventilated rib?

[Pete Lester]

My understanding is a "Trap" gun would be configured with; 30" or longer bbls (might have vent rib), most likley to have double beads, tight chokes, might have a BTFE, might be equipped with a SST, could be P/G or straight grip stock that is considered "high" or "straight" (not as much drop as a field gun), stock might have what is called a "full comb", safety might be non-automatic, automatic or possibly no safety at all.

Lots of owner discretion involved with a trap gun, the basics are long barrels,tight chokes, straight stocks.

What I would like; 30" barrels tight chokes but one more open than the other for shooting the first target in doubles, double beads, a BTFE (barrel heat can be uncomfortable in summer), a SST (easier for doubles), a full comb, a straight stock with about 2 1/8" DAH.

[Bruce Day]

Pete, dead on, except that Rem-Parker cataloged a "Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun" which had as standard: any grade, 12ga, recoil pad, SST, beavertail forend, 30 or 32", vent rib, 14 3/8", 1 1/2DAC, 1 7/8"DAH, any grip, Monte Carlo optional, non auto safety. See Rem Parker catalog, p. 27.

But the V in question is a long way from the Double Barrel Trap. We've been through this trap gun or live bird gun issue many times with few real identifiers besides long barrels and high stock.

[Pete Lester]

Bruce I believe we can/should differentiate between a "Trap" gun and a Parker "Double Trap". I saw the question as what makes a "Trap" gun. I think it is important to note that Parker purposefully built guns for trap shooting before the "Double Trap" was marketed. The gun as described is not a "Double Trap" but may indeed by a "Trap" gun.

[Dennis Eskey]

I'll obviously have to check these additional areas, particularly the stock dimensions. Right now all I have is a 12ga. VHE advertised as a trap model w/32" barrels, F&F, beavertail forend, straight stock,twin ivory beads, double triggers and a 1928 serial number. Thanks again.

[Bruce Day]

No, you're right Pete. I was just adding to your comment, not differing with you at all. Parker made lots of guns that could be called trap guns, some could be used for anything and a few were specialized trap guns. I believe that it was not until the early 1930's that Parker made something that they actually cataloged as a trap gun yet they had obviously made trap guns for many years ( not counting the single barrel guns). Then as now, trap shooters had their individual ideas about what they wanted in a trap gun, and recalling that the national trapshooting champion for several years running shot a cheap single barrel Mod 37 Winchester.

Dennis, it may be splitting hairs, but I would not call that V a "trap model". I would call it a "trap configuration", not that it makes a hill of any difference.

[Dennis Eskey]

If I remember from the Parker Story (Trap Gun Section) they mentioned a trap gun being made available in 1928. ??? That date, I remember, did seem to jive with the 1928 date on this gun. (Again discounting the SBT's)

Bruce, I can certainly appreciate your point. Any gun could have been bought in any configuration for any buyer. And for that reason, perhaps the question has no real answer and anything with long barrels and a high stock is a "maybe"......end of story. ????

I just hope that when I go to sell it the buyer doesn't ask me the same questions that I'm asking you guys and the current seller.

[Pete Lester]

No, you're right Pete. I was just adding to your comment, not differing with you at all. Parker made lots of guns that could be called trap guns, some could be used for anything and a few were specialized trap guns.

I have VH from 1928 with 30" tight chokes, double beads. splinter foreend, p/g stock and not much drop with a nice big full comb that spreads the recoil over my cheek. Mark Conrad noted in a letter it was "trap configuration" I like shooting crows over a caller and decoys with it :)

[Dennis Eskey]

A letter would perhaps help me, too but I don't think I could get one before I have to commit on the purchase. Thanks.

[Bruce Day]

Yes, exactly, Pete.

Now which famous gun writer was always writing that Parkers had way too much drop for him? In addition to saying that Parkers were always built too heavy?

[Pete Lester]

That writer would not have liked mine, not much drop but it's 8lbs and 1 ounce on a 1 1/2 frame LOL

My first guess would be Buckingham but the Super Fox is not light, so I'll guess Foster.

[Bruce Day]

Pete, Michael MacIntosh. I've always thought he never saw enough variety of Parkers before saying those things. Back in the day when people could order new Parkers to their liking they knew better.

[Dean Romig]

Dennis, I hope that gun has an early enough serial number that Mark can supply a letter. There is a book missing for late '28 and '29 which precluded me from getting a letter on my CHE Double Trap #230XXX

[Dean Romig]

WOW Pete!! Foster? I'm crushed... WHF loved Parkers - owned several - and was a skeet man, not trap.

[Pete Lester]

Jeesh Dean why would I think a Granite State guy like Spiller or Ford would have said something disparaging about Parker. (We all know up here the MA guys (Foster) have attitude) :rotf::duck:

Figures a Fox guy would say that!

[Dave Suponski]

I have two double Trap guns.A VHE 32" full/full, single trigger,vent rib,beavertail,recoil pad,full comb high stock and non-auto safety and the same gun in DHE both pistol grip guns. Made in 1927 and 1928. The DHE is provenanced to a trap shooter.There is no question in my mind both guns were ordered as target guns.

But I agree with Pete wholeheartedly...Trap shooters are notorious for fooling with their guns and Parker would try to accomodate within reason.

[Pete Lester]

But I agree with Pete wholeheartedly...Trap shooters are notorious for fooling with their guns and Parker would try to accomodate within reason.

Some day we'll probably see a Parker trap gun with a recoil reducing adjustable stock (looks like prosthetic limb) for sale on gunbroker :rotf:

Hey Dean oh Dean where are you? Seriously I hold Massachusetts in much higher esteem since the Senate race was decided :rotf:

[Dave Suponski]

God.... I hope not....:shock:

[Pete Lester]

Ya never know Dave, remember a while back there was an otherwise nice SA trap with a ported barrel for sale on there.

[Dave Suponski]

Got that right Pete.I remember that gun!

[Dean Romig]

Some day we'll probably see a Parker trap gun with a recoil reducing adjustable stock (looks like prosthetic limb) for sale on gunbroker :rotf:

That's not as far-fetched as you might think. A GHE was offered to me about two years ago with just such a stock. I said to the guy, "Do I look crazy?" He replied, "I didn't think you'd want it but I just had to ask." I never even asked to see the gun.

Hey Dean oh Dean where are you? Seriously I hold Massachusetts in much higher esteem since the Senate race was decided :rotf:

Me too! And the outcome of that race was determined by independant-thinking voters, not Republicans or right-wingers.

...

[Dave Suponski]

Francis,Let me help you decipher this: Crow shooting should go in the Hunting section. While I love a Model 12 and I shoot one quite often at best this should be in the Other Fine Doubles section.Out of this whole diatribe the only thing "On Topic" is your sixth paragraph.As I am not getting any younger I really don,t want to spend the rest of my time reading diatribes.

Francisco,I you really want to "make friends and influence people" keep it short and to the point.......Please.....:rolleyes:

[Pete Lester]

That's not as far-fetched as you might think. A GHE was offered to me about two years ago with just such a stock. I said to the guy, "Do I look crazy?" He replied, "I didn't think you'd want it but I just had to ask." I never even asked to see the gun.

Actually that is one that we needed a picture of, sort of Ripley's Believe or Not Parker. LOL

[John Liles]

Sounds as though some one might be wanting to relocate to Sans-Francisco. Sorry, I just couldn't help it!

[Dave Suponski]

:biglaugh:

[Austin W Hogan]

Returning to Dennis' original query: what constitutes a Parker Trap Gun?

We credit our good friend and frequent contributor Ken Waite Jr on this.

Ken had a very nice display of Parker trap/live bird guns at the last Vintagers Concours at Sandanona. The lighting in the display area was not good, but we carried photos of the display in Parker Pages. There were straight grips pistol grips auto safeties and no safeties and several grades mixed through this display.
We carried a tabulation of dimensions and weights of guns used at a major tournament in the Iron Men series again contributed by Ken
Mark Conrad searched the archives for several names in Iron Men and did identify guns purchased by those individuals. These usually specified stock dimensions, and sometimes trigger pull; many were returned for pattern adjustment.
We have been able to examine a few guns sold by DuBray and made to measurements obtained at a shooting event. No safety, trigger pull and cast are sometimes noted in these orders. We have also had the coincidence of the availabity of a bore gauge and a DuBray ordered gun. The bore gauge read .740 and found some "different" choke tapers as noted in the most recent Parker Pages on some occassions. We do not have sufficient measurements to determine the frequency of the 740 bore in DuBray competitor orders.

The sum of all this is that there is no physical feature that uniquely identifies a Parker trap gun. This takes us to the accompanying thread. What type of provenance significantly ties a Parker gun to a competitive event?

Best, Austin

[Pete Lester]

One of the features Mark noted for my gun that was ordered in "Trap Configuration" was 2 5/8" chambers were specified. This was my first research letter where chamber length was mentioned. Again the gun is from 1928. I am guessing that 2 3/4" 12ga was available at that time but had not become standard and the person ordering the gun wanted shorter chambers for performance reasons or planned to shoot 2 5/8" loads.

Chamber length for awhile was another variable for "trap" guns or so it appears.

[Bill Murphy]

A 1928 12 gauge gun with 2 5/8" chambers was not likely to have been chambered that way to shoot 2 5/8" shells.

[Austin W Hogan]

Bill; did you consider that there may have been competition shooters that preferred a lighter load?

Best, Austin

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;14708]Francis,Let me help you decipher this: Crow shooting should go in the Hunting section. While I love a Model 12 and I shoot one quite often at best this should be in the Other Fine Doubles section.Out of this whole diatribe the only thing "On Topic" is your sixth paragraph.As I am not getting any younger I really don,t want to spend the rest of my time reading diatribes.

Francisco,I you really want to "make friends and influence people" keep it short and to the point.......Please.....:rolleyes:[- Thanks David- I respect brother machinists like I respect brother Veterans, no matter their branch of service. And as at one time there was a SKI on the tag end of my surname, advise from a brother Pollack/Pollock?? is also always welcome. My bad, I guess. When Pete Lester mentioned blasting crows with his Parker Trap gun, I got "carried away" figured he was another fellow member of the brotherhood-as is Morris Baker--

I love to shoot crows with double guns and M12's, but will not mention either one again on the PGCA unless someone directly invites me to do so- Fair Enough??:duck:

[Dave Suponski]

Fair enough Francis.You are one of the"Characters" that make this forum what it is.This is just my opinion but I really think that if you keep your replys on topic without all the vague referrences that everyone will enjoy your company much more. Sooooo when you catch yourself "rambling"....well you know..:rolleyes:

You must be hell on the keyboard. It would take me a week to post some of those replys....now back to "Trap Guns"

[Pete Lester]

and I still enjoy shooting crows over decoys and a caller with my "Trap" gun, got 8 of them this afternoon in Maine :p

[Dave Suponski]

Ya know Pete somehow this is all your fault.......:nono:

[Rich Anderson]

My trap gun is a DHE on a 1 1/2 frame. 30 inch vent rib, SST, BTF, M/F to a Hawkins pad. I like shooting 5 stand with it:), come to think of it thats all I have ever shot with it:duck:

How's that Suponski, short and to the point:bigbye:?

[Mike McKinney]

Dave with an SKI on the end of his name has really been helpful to me in regard to some PM questions I have ask him about......but several posts ago I admitted that I really wanted to learn all I could about Parkers and I'm sure seldom knowledgeable enough to give good qualified information about that subject, but I have figured out tonight that you northern boys don't hold back. Maybe that's lesson #2, a southern boy just can't get too distressed about what is said, back and forth, because it comes out just like you think it.

[Dave Suponski]

Perfect Rich...

Mike,Whats that old saying ?...."Discretion is the better part of valor"...Not always...

[Francis Morin]

Ya know Pete somehow this is all your fault.......:nono:- Naw- Dave- you are right. Like some folks who get long in years, I am "long winded" one of my many faults I will confess. But those few who really know me well would tell you that my loyalty towards my friends is unsurpassed (Semper Fi nonwithstanding)- and as I consider you and Dean and others on the PGCA to be friends, I plan to take your considered advice. I'm not here to annoy, if I come across that way, it is unintentional on my end anyway. I guess the computer is such a new novelty for me that sometimes I get carried away. So your words of wisdom will be heeded-:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

Austin, some shooters may well prefer light loads, but I wouldn't think that anyone would order a trap gun and be restricted to such loads. As we all know, Parker Brothers bored 2 5/8" chambers for 2 3/4" shells as a standard procedure, confirmed by factory specifications and hang tags.

[Mark Conrad]

One of the features Mark noted for my gun that was ordered in "Trap Configuration" was 2 5/8" chambers were specified. This was my first research letter where chamber length was mentioned. Again the gun is from 1928. I am guessing that 2 3/4" 12ga was available at that time but had not become standard and the person ordering the gun wanted shorter chambers for performance reasons or planned to shoot 2 5/8" loads.

Chamber length for awhile was another variable for "trap" guns or so it appears.

Pete, Bill is right on the 2 5/8 inch chambers. Most 12 ga. guns built in that time period had 2 5/8 inch chambers. It was written in the stock book so I put it in the letter. Most of the 12 ga. guns on that stock book page had the same thing. The Trap Configuration was written in the stock book which is unusal. In fact, I don't recall seeing it on another gun. I am not really sure what they meant by that comment. It could have been a full comb or something else. There are plenty of double traps in the stock books that don't have the trap configuration comment.

Mark

[Rich Anderson]

I wonder why there are more graded trap guns VS skeet guns? The majority of skeet guns are VHE and you seldom find a VHE trap gun.

[Mark Conrad]

One reason is that skeet shooters would shoot different guages and need more than one gun.

Mark

[Austin W Hogan]

I think we have fallen into the trap of what is called in science "aliasing the data"; that is we are assigning physical properties to something by giving that thing a name.
I suggest everyone re read Ken Waite's material in Iron Men of Gundom. Prior to 1910, The GAH, and a lot of other major trap tournaments, were won by shooters using DH Parkers with proper stock dimensions. These had splinter forends, the shooter's choice of grips, perhaps a specified choke, usually "as close as possible" or "tighten", sometimes a specified trigger pull, and the shooter's stock dimensions. There was no trap gun moniker applied.
Charles Newcomb purchased a "stictly stock" DH in 1901 and won many tournaments with it before buying a DHE in 1906. He converted to the single barrel trap gun a few years later, when clay bird tournaments required only one shot. Most other competitors did the same.
DuBray's 1901 table of competitors' Parker stock dimensions shows competitors at major events used barrel lengths 26 - 32 inches and a wide varieties of weights.
The VH(E) 30 inch, F & F two frame, and the M & F 1 1/2 as well, are pretty good trap guns if the gun has your dimensions. I have a VHE two frame, 32 inch, straight grip, monte carlo, btfe, no safety, single trigger that isn't labelled trap gun, and may not have been used at trap 90 years ago, but it has won our local league's A division 6 times.

I think we are around to provenance again; a Parker is a trap gun if it can be tied to use on a trap field. Don't forget that a trapshooter's duck gun might be configured exactly as his trap gun.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Some very good points Austin. The majority of trap shooters were not pros in those days, probably 98% amatuers who used their waterfowl and pheasant guns to shoot trap as most probably only had one gun.

[Dave Suponski]

Austin,A DHE 32" PG,BTF,recoil pad ,single trigger,vent rib,full and full gun that I have possesion of was owned by HH Ganson who was a known CT trap shooter.Also my VHE gun in the same configuration was owned by William Saxby or his father who was a noted trap shooter in the early days.As an aside Saxby was the attorney general under Nixon I believe.I bought the VHE from Mr. Murphy some years back.Both these guns have the provenance that you speak of.

So if I am understanding this correctly you are saying that Parker didn,t make a trap gun unless it can be provenanced to a trap shooter?

[Scott Janowski]

With a post this long about Trap guns I thought it was time for a picture or two.

[Dave Suponski]

Scott, Thanks for posting those pictures! Very very nice!

[Austin W Hogan]

Dave; I don't think a trap gun has to be provenanced to a shooter to be a trap gun, but the light 26 inch gun shown in Du Bray's table of competitor's measurements was certainly a trap gun.
Parker had a number of flyers and leaflets in the 1920's promoting trap guns and offering retrofits of trap (btfe) fore ends, ejectors and vent ribs. Cdr Gunther, Bill, and Charlie collected s/n of late guns with vent ribs and tabulated them as Trap Guns in The Parker Story.
The brochures, including one from Jeff Kuss that appeared in Winter Parker Pages encouraged trap shooters to enhance scores with BTFE, rib etc, but did not offer a specific model with some or all of these features as a "trap gun".
I remember examining the gun that John Dunkle has brought to our New Years Day outing, and pouring over the order book page trying to decifer the entry "rib like trap". Then the bells rang; a rib like a trap gun; a ventilated rib like a single barrel trap.
I think it boils down to the old story; some people collect guns, some people collect marks on guns, and some people collect stories about guns. A nice gun, with good marks, and a good story to go along, should be very desirable to all three collectors.

Best, Austin

[Dave Suponski]

Thank You Austin,Parker as well as all the other gun makers of the time were out to capitalize on the popularity of the sport of trap and later the sport of skeet.Offering retrofits of existing guns made perfectly good business sense and I think from the advertising we have seen did a pretty good job.In a sense they could sell the same gun twice.

[Rich Anderson]

My DHE Trap is provenanced to a B.C. Melman of Cozad NE. Evidently a trap shooter of no known provenance.

[Pete Lester]

The Trap Configuration was written in the stock book which is unusal. In fact, I don't recall seeing it on another gun. I am not really sure what they meant by that comment. It could have been a full comb or something else. There are plenty of double traps in the stock books that don't have the trap configuration comment.

Mark

Mark, I find some of the frustration and mystique is what we don't/can't know vs what we do know. I remember you telling me my VH with the annotation "Trap Configuration" was unusual. I don't know what was meant by Trap Configuration but believe it has to be related to the abnormally large comb (pic of it next another 1 1/2 frame 30" VH attached). It's stock dimensions, 30" barrels, tight chokes and double ivory beads make well suited for trap shooting but the stock seems unusual to me. I have no provenance to a trap shooter but I have a letter with information that suggests this gun was to be used on the trap field.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/100_0553.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Richard, Ed Mellman of Cozad certainly has trap provenance. Don't worry about the spelling of his name. Parker Brothers and ATA could both have spelled his name wrong. In one year he shot, he had a 92.42 average, a pretty hefty average for his time. What year was the DHE built? I wonder if he'll let us hunt on his property?

[Dave Suponski]

Bill,I know I asked you this before but you never replied. Do your records have anything on HH Ganson?

[Fred Preston]

Here's a couple of "Trap" guns. Top is DHE #236734; non auto safety, VR, SST, BTFE, 30" BBls; DAC is 1/16" more than DAH. Below is VHE #190872; no safety, SST, 32" bbls; fat comb. Both are 20ga. Was there a sub guage class in Trap?

[Dean Romig]

Probably better business sense would have been to promote the purchase of a second gun replete with all the features most desirable to the 'champion' trap shooters of the time. But, business 'ethics' were held in higher regard then than now, so Dave, you are probably correct that they could make your Parker 'better' thereby building faith and loyalty within an already strong customer base.

There is no question in my mind that John Dunkles's Great Grandfather's trap gun is the Parker trap gun by which all other 'Parker Traps', 'Parker Double Traps', Parker 'trap configured' guns be measured. And I mean that more than any other statement I've ever made about Parker guns.

[Dave Suponski]

Gentlemen,This is a great discussion.We know that prior to the introduction of the single trigger(first offered in the 1922 catalog)the vent rib on double guns(1923)the trap forend(catalog offering1926)Parker produced many guns that were used at the traps.

In the hammergun era there were non of these options available so I would think that a gun with provenance to a trap shooter play's an even bigger part in determining a "Trap" gun.In that era Parker equipped guns with the Trap buttplate to promote sales of trap guns but in many cases other than that the gun was a standard gun.

Austin has mentioned and we have read in the Parker Pages,The Parker Story" and sporting advertsing of the era that many noted trap shooters used "off the shelf" guns to great success while others had guns"built" for their needs.

To my mind we have determined that 1) Many Parkers both hammer and hammerless were used at the traps by novices and professionals alike.Some were field guns some not.2) That prior to the introduction of trap gun options the use of a Parker Gun at the traps provenance plays a large roll in determining weather the gun was a trap gun or a gun used at both the traps and in the field.3)With the coming of the 1920's Parker advertising decided to cash in on the continued popularity of the sport and introduced "Trap Model" guns.I am sure industry pressure had alot to do with this and with that came the opportunity to upgrade some guns as repair work.

That is not to say that trap guns were not used in the field or duck blind just as today when we see skeet guns on the sporting clay's courses.

Wheeeww...

[Bill Murphy]

Fred, just as today, there were rich people and gun freaks who just had to have another shotgun. I don't know of any small gauge class in ATA trap, and women and children were happy to shoot 12 gauge guns.

[Bruce Day]

SN 159,799, a 1912 BHE 12/32 ordered by DuPont agent W C Howard in Denver and believed to be for trap, but put away and not used. Only known occurrance of rounded skeleton butt.

Letters at F & F, LOP 13 7/8, 14, 14 1/8; DAC 1 3/8 DAH 2, Wt 7/15.

[Dean Romig]

"A rounded skeleton butt" Sheesh, leave it to those trap shooters . . . they'll do anything to improve scores. I'm guessing Mr. Howard believed such a butt would assist gun rotation on the shoulder for rising birds . . . now that's a stretch! No wonder he never used it - :shock:

That's a beautiful gun Bruce - thanks for showing it to us - is it yours?

[Bruce Day]

The usefulness of the rounded butt probably depends on a person's chest thickness. Works fine for me.

Yes, it's one of mine.

[Bruce Day]

Bill, when I owned the Mellman gun, I found that Mr Mellman shot at the Kearney and Grand Island, Nebraska, gun clubs. Grand Island was more populous and on the Platte River, then said to be a mile wide, with interbraided channels, full of islands, and as much of a waterfowl hunting area as the well known eastern seaboard and California central valley areas. Many nice Parkers were sold into the area.

No Mellmans are left in the immediate area that I could find. Mr Mellman owned several Parkers and had his name engraved on the barrels.

The area was and remains prime ground for upland bird hunting. A certain little D grade top lever hammer 20ga that you saw recently came from there. Farmers used to pick up eastern hunters at the Union Pacific railroad station and drive them around the prairies in horse drawn wagons while shooting prairie grouse.

[Rich Anderson]

Bill my DHE Trap was built between 28 & 29 as the serial number is 230XXX. No record books for this serial number range I'm told.

[Bill Murphy]

There is some information on 230,000 series numbers out there. Order book #101 has some 230,000 series numbers, the list of build card numbers includes some, and the Griffin and Howe research files probably include some. None of these sources would be included in the Serialization Book data. Post the number and I'll look them up for you.

[Dean Romig]

I sent for a research letter on the CHE Trap that I won 230XXX and Mark said there were no surviving records available to the PGCA but I never checked with Bob on the number. Where's that A&F listing of Parker numbers that G&H has? I thought it was an attachment to this website somewhere...

[Christopher Lien]

Here ya go Dean...

http://www.griffinhowe.com/Research-getserial.cfm?make=34
_____________________

[Bill Murphy]

Yeah, click on the "research" link. When you get to the "research" link, don't click in your specific serial number. I have clicked in numbers that come up blank, yet the number appears on the lists. The lists are TWO in number, the new gun list and the used gun list. Scroll down so you can read both. Your gun could appear on either list. Remember, don't trust the computer to locate your number, read the lists.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Chris and Bill, the number isn't in those records either.
No big deal - it's not my gun anymore...

[Rich Anderson]

Bill the serial number is 230177.

Thanks:)

[Dean Romig]

Bill, when I owned the Mellman gun, I found that Mr Mellman shot at the Kearney and Grand Island, Nebraska, gun clubs. Grand Island was more populous and on the Platte River, then said to be a mile wide, with interbraided channels, full of islands, and as much of a waterfowl hunting area as the well known eastern seaboard and California central valley areas. Many nice Parkers were sold into the area.

No Mellmans are left in the immediate area that I could find. Mr Mellman owned several Parkers and had his name engraved on the barrels.

The area was and remains prime ground for upland bird hunting. A certain little D grade top lever hammer 20ga that you saw recently came from there. Farmers used to pick up eastern hunters at the Union Pacific railroad station and drive them around the prairies in horse drawn wagons while shooting prairie grouse.


Bruce's post made me go looking for these.


.

[Dean Romig]

Apologies for veering from the VHE Trap theme of this thread.

[Bill Murphy]

Rich, PGCA has 230,175 and Griffin and Howe has 230,178, but no 230,177.

[Dean Romig]

And the CHE I owned was 230760

[Rich Anderson]

So close yet so far. I wonder how there can be a gap of only a couple og guns with no data.

Thanks for looking Bill.

[Patrick Lien]

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;14989]Gentlemen,This is a great discussion.We know that prior to the introduction of the single trigger(first offered in the 1922 catalog)the vent rib on double guns(1923)the trap forend(catalog offering1926)Parker produced many guns that were used at the traps.

Hi Dave,
I was curious if there were many guns delivered with these options prior to the catalog dates that you listed above. My father showed me an interesting 1 7/8 DOH, Straight grip, 34" VH where the factory "Trap Forend" pre-dates the 1926 catalog. Was this common?

How many of you gents have guns with Trap characteristics that pre-date the Parker catalog offerings? I think these guns could have very interesting letters. These are the early guns that I would think were ordered by trap shooters.

Patrick

[Dave Suponski]

Pat,Parker would retrofit guns with trap forends and vent ribs.We know of several documented guns that were refitted.